Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Do you consider the above to fall into simply 'you know his moves and how to avoid them'? I can agree that this isn't HARDER than PvP, it's very much like fighting a Red Mage in the same game, but then again, to me, Red Mages are also dynamic and can be overwhelming if they're good.

I find the two to be approximately equal, the boss is just stronger and I have to keep it up for a longer time.

This is a standard 'random roaming Elite' in a specific area. There are about... 400 different 'Elites' of this type.

In a 1v1 match, yeah, both the mob and the Red Mage would be less dynamic than "a party vs party" or "a party vs a ton of people" pvp. If you've killed that Elite Mob several times, you'd know roughly how to tackle its combat abilities/style. I personally wouldn't know how to deal with that exact mob just because I dunno what's my skillset in FF11, but I'd assume a high lvl player could give you a few options how to beat that mob, because they've done so a ton of times. Same applies to pvp against a singular opponent. If you know their moves, you'll know how to respond to them. And if you know that opponent's "logic", you'll have a rough idea of how they'll respond to your actions. I've experienced this in arena pvp in L2 against multiple people at higher lvls of combat ability.

And the same would apply to a Boss, unless he was completely randomized or had completely random triggers (at which point I dunno if PvErs would really enjoy that type of enemy). But in owpvp, it's always randomized. Even with locations that are usually visited by the same people, you never know how many of them might come or whether a new group of people leveled up to a point where they can farm that location so it's a completely new set of "logic and class/gear". To me that owpvp is way more dynamic than fighting mobs with predetermined sets of abilities and responses, even if they are quite varied.

Oh, THERE we go. I was actually making too many assumptions.

Yes, in FFXI, enemies have randomization and random triggers alongside their reactive ones. You have to respond on the fly all the time. It changes according to how many people have hit it, it changes according to what types of things are effective (only a few enemies do this but we know they all COULD), it changes according to who has hate.

I am once again surprised at the level of development of games that other people play. Yes, if Ashes enemies don't randomly choose between different impactful abilities, I will consider it not worth my time, I just don't play those game types.

I can have a good basic STRATEGY to deal with that mob, but if on a given day it just 'decides to spam damage instead of ever absorbing any buffs from me', I have to adapt, and FAST. Fail to adapt (or adapt back) and I lose.

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Sieges in Ashes are PvX as of last design iteration. It's a different skill set. There is a firm difference between 'being able to fight someone in a scuffle' and 'protect an objective' or even 'know which objectives to let fall so that you can succeed at more important ones given the configuration of battle.'

Managing a guild successfully is a different skill set even still. The fact that you keep attributing certain things to pvp and 'pvp skill' just makes me think you haven't actually experienced it at high levels or that you are one of those oddly lucky yet ignorant people who manage to get to the top level of something without actually understanding why what you are doing works. Tank, DPS, or Support out of curiosity?

The best guild leaders I've known were usually kinda shit at pvp. But they were great at looking at the bigger picture and explaining it to people who couldn't see that picture, but might've been way better at pvp.

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I think this is the core of the issue. Any PvE is centered purely around what Devs dictate to you is the "right way to do things", while any owPvP is centered around what Players dictate is the "right thing".

You main argument stems from the premise of "Devs told me that I can only bring 40 people into this instance, so I gotta work with those 40 people to beat the instance", while owPvP players who want to be seen as "the best pvpers" think along the lines of "what is the smallest amount of players I can bring to win in any given situation?" because that is what will get you called "Best PvPers" by other players. When you can win against higher numbers - you're highly skilled in pvp. When you can kill 5 people for every death of your team, even if you lose at the end - you're highly skilled (literally 5 times as skilled as your opponents).

To a owPvPer it's not a "Devs told me this is the limit so I must follow it", it's "Devs gave me these tools and I shall put as many limits onto myself as possible to prove that I'm better than all the people that don't have these limits". It is literally the "themepark" vs "sandbox" argument.

It's obvious that you prefer to go against the Devs rather than the players, while the owpvp enjoyers here prefer to go against the players instead of the Devs. Both ways are valid and both ways are difficult, except the difficulty is controlled by different people.

NiKr wrote: »

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I think this is the core of the issue. Any PvE is centered purely around what Devs dictate to you is the "right way to do things", while any owPvP is centered around what Players dictate is the "right thing".

This last line of yours is mostly just about the numbers aspect again, right? The 'Dev limit' in question. Or is it your opinion/experience that Devs generally or always specifically script how groups should take on harder PvE content?

I'm trying to understand if you've only played or heard of 'PvE' games where the strategy is something the Devs explicitly decided and groups of players don't come up with their own specific group tactics based on their preferences.

It seems like a stretch to say 'Any PvE' if you're not referring to just the numbers, but I could see it based on experiences and anecdotes you might have heard from others?

Azherae wrote: »

This last line of yours is mostly just about the numbers aspect again, right? The 'Dev limit' in question. Or is it your opinion/experience that Devs generally or always specifically script how groups should take on harder PvE content?

It's mainly a response to Noaani's explanation of what "top lvl pve" for him is and his reasoning for why owpvp is always easier. "You're limited by the devs in pve, while you can always add people in owpvp". And my counter to that is "your upper limit in pve is dev-based, while my upper limit in owpvp is me-based". I'm sure you can beat 40-man raids with fewer people, but I'd assume Noaani would just says that it wasn't top lvl pve if you could. If I'm wrong on that assumption @Noaani pls correct me.