Best examples of Action Combat? Starting to Feel Like Tab > Action

I was thinking about what action combat has that tab doesn't and the main 3 things I could come up with is verticality, precision aiming and action dodges. Are there any tab games that utilize those mechanics? Can you think up any more features that can only work in action combat? Cause I think I can come up with a few intricate boss encounters that use all three of those across all types of classes, though I'm not sure if I'd be able to make hundreds of unique fights with them. But then again, outside of now infamously awesome and incredible EQ(2), I don't think there's any pve mmo that has over a 100 absolutely unique top lvl fights.

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Isn't GW2 the poster child of "hybrid" combat? So I'd imagine there's some overlap of abilities/actions between the two systems. Are there any purer tab games that utilize action dodge as a general mechanic and not as smth class-based?

NiKr wrote: »

I was thinking about what action combat has that tab doesn't and the main 3 things I could come up with is verticality, precision aiming and action dodges. Are there any tab games that utilize those mechanics? Can you think up any more features that can only work in action combat? Cause I think I can come up with a few intricate boss encounters that use all three of those across all types of classes, though I'm not sure if I'd be able to make hundreds of unique fights with them. But then again, outside of now infamously awesome and incredible EQ(2), I don't think there's any pve mmo that has over a 100 absolutely unique top lvl fights.

This is probably not the most useful way to look at this anyway. I'll just 'complain' again. Even discussing 'Tab' vs 'Action' is meaningless. It's like getting two buckets for collecting sand on a beach and then labeling them differently based on which TYPE of random seashell they contain when you scoop a big pile of sand up.

Just ignore all of that. If you want good bosses, design the experience you want/need the players to have and work backwards, and whatever comes out, build. Ashes' encounter team is doing this already. The only question here is 'whose expectations are they going to annoy?'

'Action' Players - "I dodged that but the AoE is so big in this game that it doesn't let me truly dodge!"
'Tab' Players - "I can't do anything because I have to be moving around all the time like a maniac!"

Or they could just design it properly (evading to the outer range of abilities lowers damage for example) and make BOTH those extremist sides upset like they already seem to be doing. Same thing for higher end PvE.

"16 man content? That's barely a raid at all! Where are my mechanics?"
"40 man content? This is just DPS check vs random wipes/convoluted mechanics/add swarms."

Somewhere in there is a sweet spot where you just have to accept that a tradeoff had to be made and live with losing whoever is hardcore against it. And if you say 'Hybrid' Combat, low mobility, Split Body animation, you've basically already decided what that spot is because you design these things by designing your goals and constraints, not 'I want this game to have good PvP' or 'I want this game to have good PvE'.

That'd be the most realistic reason why it's taking so long, too, wouldn't it? Combat systems don't take THIS long. Too many good bases that you could just reasonably 'copy' if you knew your targeted constraints. They're just probably working out those things still.

Azherae wrote: »

Just ignore all of that. If you want good bosses, design the experience you want/need the players to have and work backwards, and whatever comes out, build. Ashes' encounter team is doing this already. The only question here is 'whose expectations are they going to annoy?'

Well yeah, that's exactly what I was doing in my head, but I was trying to figure out what kind of boss could I come up with that would illustrate AC's features the best, which is why I asked about what those features are, outside of the things I've listed.

My thought process started out from vague basic mechanics which would then be supported by the detailed combat system changes, when required. But to know what the basics are - you gotta look at what action combat does that tab doesn't.

We have not received permission from SirChancelot to share the quoted post.

Which was my point exactly. If there's barely any tab games where action dodging is a general mechanic rather than a class skill - then it's mainly an AC feature.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Just ignore all of that. If you want good bosses, design the experience you want/need the players to have and work backwards, and whatever comes out, build. Ashes' encounter team is doing this already. The only question here is 'whose expectations are they going to annoy?'

Well yeah, that's exactly what I was doing in my head, but I was trying to figure out what kind of boss could I come up with that would illustrate AC's features the best, which is why I asked about what those features are, outside of the things I've listed.

My thought process started out from vague basic mechanics which would then be supported by the detailed combat system changes, when required. But to know what the basics are - you gotta look at what action combat does that tab doesn't.

Well, in short, it 'doesn't matter'.

Even though AoC will require most players to choose at least 1/4 'Action Combat Skills', it's unlikely that those who do choose to do this will be relegated to being less effective. We could assume that they will make it so that certain bosses are easier to beat with one form or another, but if they don't do that, then it'll be limited.

The current design is already moreso 'you can just choose to use your reticle or not use it for most things'. But as for the concept overall... there's nothing innate to Action that is a 'positive feature' in an MMO except the one thing many players don't actually want. The higher awareness requirement and skill gap (predictive flows, feints, etc). Verticality is achievable in tab games using just basic options, but doesn't enhance most content. Evasion skills are okay but in larger battles, just 'using a Tab Target ability in a specific way' does the job equally well or better. Precision Aiming is probably the best option.

Anyways maybe you can get something out of this discussion from last year. Mostly just that page, which is a big read in itself.