I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-22 05:37:57

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I think this is the important part that a lot of people seem to forget/disregard. If there's a super complex ow Boss out there and only one elite guild has been running it until they manage to finally beat him, literally all the other guilds will have no clue how they beat him (that is, if the elite guild manages to protect that info through pvp obviously). And now you have an elite guild that's even stronger because they're the only ones who can farm a boss.

I think the discussion so far has been mainly about "there's several great guilds that are all running the bosses in parallel, trying to be the first ones to get it", while that will not be the case in Ashes (at least as of right now). Iirc Noaani said that EQ2 had ow Bosses too, but I thiiink they weren't that difficult? Or it was the other way around and they were so difficult due to being ow that no one beat them? I forget.

But either way, in Ashes, competitive pve will directly influence competitive pvp. And that is my domain, which I'm very happy about :)

That said, there is expected to be some instanced content in Ashes, and if I had to bet on EITHER the Instanced or the Open World bosses being the 'Tier 5-7', I'd actually assume the Instanced ones would be.

Or that there was a ladder, where OW bosses are at Tier2, 4, 6, and are very Mitigation Check heavy, such that you need to succeed at the Tier 1, 3, 5, to have the defense gear required to stand up to them. Easy basic stagger design.

Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-22 05:47:31

That said, there is expected to be some instanced content in Ashes, and if I had to bet on EITHER the Instanced or the Open World bosses being the 'Tier 5-7', I'd actually assume the Instanced ones would be.

Or that there was a ladder, where OW bosses are at Tier2, 4, 6, and are very Mitigation Check heavy, such that you need to succeed at the Tier 1, 3, 5, to have the defense gear required to stand up to them. Easy basic stagger design.
Yeah, I expect Intrepid to either go back on that design decision or to go with smth like you described. They've said that instanced bosses won't be repeatable and won't give you BiS stuff though, so I dunno tbh. There's a ton of question when it comes to their pve promises. And the "only a few % of people can clear it" is probably the most problematic one cause there's just too many implications that come with it, and none of them really work in the context of what's widely accepted as top lvl pve content in mmos.

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-22 06:02:55

That said, there is expected to be some instanced content in Ashes, and if I had to bet on EITHER the Instanced or the Open World bosses being the 'Tier 5-7', I'd actually assume the Instanced ones would be.

Or that there was a ladder, where OW bosses are at Tier2, 4, 6, and are very Mitigation Check heavy, such that you need to succeed at the Tier 1, 3, 5, to have the defense gear required to stand up to them. Easy basic stagger design.
Yeah, I expect Intrepid to either go back on that design decision or to go with smth like you described. They've said that instanced bosses won't be repeatable and won't give you BiS stuff though, so I dunno tbh. There's a ton of question when it comes to their pve promises. And the "only a few % of people can clear it" is probably the most problematic one cause there's just too many implications that come with it, and none of them really work in the context of what's widely accepted as top lvl pve content in mmos.

Hm? No, their system works. Or should I say 'my system works' and I just assume it's the same?

This is a problem that is pretty common and I think the solution is known, which is another reason for my constant ragging on games like BDO. (basically, HOW did you fail this, you could literally 'read a guide for it').

Tier 1 is instanced and drops materials for armor. In Ashes, this armor would grant probably elemental or status defenses. Lots of people need armor. Very similar or exact same armor. Economy works, repairs work because lots of people run it, interesting mechanics, and since it can just be sold and isn't likely to be hoarded, it doesn't matter as much if you can't arrange to clear the T1, you can gear up experienced players with just money.

Tier 2 is Open World, usually kills anyone without Armor from Tier1. There are 8-10x as many of these bosses as there are T1 Instanced bosses. They drop materials for WEAPONS and accessories, more targeted things that help specific Archetypes or builds. Players can target them and fight over them, but because they're spread out, this doesn't have to happen as much. Eventually a guild has all the 'Zavira's Fang' or whatever they need for their Spears, and either sell them or stop farming it so they can move on to farming something to make some other weapon.

Tier 3 is back to Instanced, funneled in again, DPS and Mechanic Check heavy, you have to have T2 Weapons to clear it, or really good understanding of mechanics, otherwise you're stuck with trickle-down from whatever guilds can clear it. Drops materials for better armor/upgrades to current armor, to allow you to pass the T4 Mitigation checks. Again, you COULD just buy this off someone who can clear it, but that doesn't mean anything, your defense is better, but if you want better offense you still have to contest the T4 in Open World.

Rinse and repeat until you're out of valid Mitigation Boosts.

Result:

15-20 Instanced content across the "Odd Number Tiers".
70-80 OW content across the 'Even Number Tiers' that you can't survive being near for too long without the gear from the Odd Number Tiers.

No direct wastes of time, you can just let the Odd Number Tiers drop MORE of the material when you're strong and quickly killing them. No downside to 'flooding the market with stronger armor' once people are past the general tier. If anything it's required, the more people HAVE the T3 Armor, the more 'T3 materials' the economy needs. Crafters rejoice. OW bosses work better because they're Mitigation Checks instead of DPS checks (which obv you can just throw more people at).

I really don't expect Intrepid to have any problems implementing something at least similar.

Post by Noaani on 2022-07-22 06:04:26

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-22 06:18:12

Hm? No, their system works. Or should I say 'my system works' and I just assume it's the same?
This is a problem that is pretty common and I think the solution is known, which is another reason for my constant ragging on games like BDO. (basically, HOW did you fail this, you could literally 'read a guide for it').

Tier 1 is instanced and drops materials for armor. In Ashes, this armor would grant probably elemental or status defenses. Lots of people need armor. Very similar or exact same armor. Economy works, repairs work because lots of people run it, interesting mechanics, and since it can just be sold and isn't likely to be hoarded, it doesn't matter as much if you can't arrange to clear the T1, you can gear up experienced players with just money.

Tier 2 is Open World, usually kills anyone without Armor from Tier1. There are 8-10x as many of these bosses as there are T1 Instanced bosses. They drop materials for WEAPONS and accessories, more targeted things that help specific Archetypes or builds. Players can target them and fight over them, but because they're spread out, this doesn't have to happen as much. Eventually a guild has all the 'Zavira's Fang' or whatever they need for their Spears, and either sell them or stop farming it so they can move on to farming something to make some other weapon.

Tier 3 is back to Instanced, funneled in again, DPS and Mechanic Check heavy, you have to have T2 Weapons to clear it, or really good understanding of mechanics, otherwise you're stuck with trickle-down from whatever guilds can clear it. Drops materials for better armor/upgrades to current armor, to allow you to pass the T4 Mitigation checks. Again, you COULD just buy this off someone who can clear it, but that doesn't mean anything, your defense is better, but if you want better offense you still have to contest the T4 in Open World.

Rinse and repeat until you're out of valid Mitigation Boosts.

Result:

15-20 Instanced content across the "Odd Number Tiers".
70-80 OW content across the 'Even Number Tiers' that you can't survive being near for too long without the gear from the Odd Number Tiers.

No direct wastes of time, you can just let the Odd Number Tiers drop MORE of the material when you're strong and quickly killing them. No downside to 'flooding the market with stronger armor' once people are past the general tier. If anything it's required, the more people HAVE the T3 Armor, the more 'T3 materials' the economy needs. Crafters rejoice. OW bosses work better because they're Mitigation Checks instead of DPS checks (which obv you can just throw more people at).

I really don't expect Intrepid to have any problems implementing something at least similar.
Would such a huge stagger of gear work on the server scale though?

Instanced content is not repeatable (at least rn) so you'd either have to give out waaaaay more gear per run than the raid required to clear the dungeon, or you'd make the dungeon easy enough for everyone to clear (which kinda defeats the point of instanced content being more complex).

But even if you give a ton of gear per Odd dungeon, how much is truly "a ton"? Cause theoretically only some % of guilds would be able to beat said dungeon, while, again theoretically, you'd want everyone on the server to get that gear, but w/o repeatability of instanced dungeons you'd pretty much prevent most of the casuals from ever having that gear, let alone fighting against Even bosses. And this would be an even bigger problem if Intrepid does manage to have 50k players on some servers.

I could maybe see "recipes as rewards" working out for this kind of system, but definitely not direct gear/mats.

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-22 06:29:31

Hm? No, their system works. Or should I say 'my system works' and I just assume it's the same?
This is a problem that is pretty common and I think the solution is known, which is another reason for my constant ragging on games like BDO. (basically, HOW did you fail this, you could literally 'read a guide for it').

Tier 1 is instanced and drops materials for armor. In Ashes, this armor would grant probably elemental or status defenses. Lots of people need armor. Very similar or exact same armor. Economy works, repairs work because lots of people run it, interesting mechanics, and since it can just be sold and isn't likely to be hoarded, it doesn't matter as much if you can't arrange to clear the T1, you can gear up experienced players with just money.

Tier 2 is Open World, usually kills anyone without Armor from Tier1. There are 8-10x as many of these bosses as there are T1 Instanced bosses. They drop materials for WEAPONS and accessories, more targeted things that help specific Archetypes or builds. Players can target them and fight over them, but because they're spread out, this doesn't have to happen as much. Eventually a guild has all the 'Zavira's Fang' or whatever they need for their Spears, and either sell them or stop farming it so they can move on to farming something to make some other weapon.

Tier 3 is back to Instanced, funneled in again, DPS and Mechanic Check heavy, you have to have T2 Weapons to clear it, or really good understanding of mechanics, otherwise you're stuck with trickle-down from whatever guilds can clear it. Drops materials for better armor/upgrades to current armor, to allow you to pass the T4 Mitigation checks. Again, you COULD just buy this off someone who can clear it, but that doesn't mean anything, your defense is better, but if you want better offense you still have to contest the T4 in Open World.

Rinse and repeat until you're out of valid Mitigation Boosts.

Result:

15-20 Instanced content across the "Odd Number Tiers".
70-80 OW content across the 'Even Number Tiers' that you can't survive being near for too long without the gear from the Odd Number Tiers.

No direct wastes of time, you can just let the Odd Number Tiers drop MORE of the material when you're strong and quickly killing them. No downside to 'flooding the market with stronger armor' once people are past the general tier. If anything it's required, the more people HAVE the T3 Armor, the more 'T3 materials' the economy needs. Crafters rejoice. OW bosses work better because they're Mitigation Checks instead of DPS checks (which obv you can just throw more people at).

I really don't expect Intrepid to have any problems implementing something at least similar.
Would such a huge stagger of gear work on the server scale though?

Instanced content is not repeatable (at least rn) so you'd either have to give out waaaaay more gear per run than the raid required to clear the dungeon, or you'd make the dungeon easy enough for everyone to clear (which kinda defeats the point of instanced content being more complex).

But even if you give a ton of gear per Odd dungeon, how much is truly "a ton"? Cause theoretically only some % of guilds would be able to beat said dungeon, while, again theoretically, you'd want everyone on the server to get that gear, but w/o repeatability of instanced dungeons you'd pretty much prevent most of the casuals from ever having that gear, let alone fighting against Even bosses. And this would be an even bigger problem if Intrepid does manage to have 50k players on some servers.

I could maybe see "recipes as rewards" working out for this kind of system, but definitely not direct gear/mats.

No, that's the point. It's not required that the T2 never drop T1 materials.

You start with 1000 players, they all want, idk... SerpentScale armor.

They all have access to either 'An instanced boss quest that rewards materials or the armor itself'. With that armor, they can now 'not die against some other thing'.

If it isn't repeatable (once cleared), then every time someone clears it, they have 'passed the filter'. You can also pass the filter via money, but that required EITHER 'someone higher than you on the ladder sold you their old gear' or 'someone equal to you on the ladder chose to stop climbing it'.

Also if Instanced content is not repeatable 'per character' people will just make Alts, I figure they meant moreso that you can't 'just re-enter whenever'. Weekly or 3-day time gate.

So 80% of players have the skill to clear The Serpent, and this results in say, 500 of them having good enough gear to not die while in combat with The Eagle. They don't even have to wear it all the time.

Anyways short version is that now you know you've got 500 players of whom many managed to deal with The Serpent, and you can throw them at The Factory (T3) with all its crazy mechanics. Filter restarts.

There's multiple reasons why I'd assume 'not repeatable' isn't as strict as that. What happens when a guild has cleared it and then a new member joins who 'needs to clear it', for example? Presumably they need to be able to take a bunch of members who have cleared it before. If that's what it means, then I'll be interested to see what they do, because the weird outcomes of 'yeah you need OW bosses to gear up Defense'...

Well, let's just say that I know another game that tried that...

Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-22 06:29:46

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No one. We all lose.

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-22 06:32:35

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No one. We all lose.

What are you talking about?

Clearly I won by making the 2^10th post.

Mega.

EDIT: Ah no, I missed it, OTR wasted the MegaPost on noting that we were at the PenultiMegaPost.

Shame.

Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-22 06:53:14

There's multiple reasons why I'd assume 'not repeatable' isn't as strict as that. What happens when a guild has cleared it and then a new member joins who 'needs to clear it', for example? Presumably they need to be able to take a bunch of members who have cleared it before.
Yeah, I came at it from the completely other side of "everything you need is available in the open world so instanced content is purely for the story's sake and not required at all if you don't care about the story".
If that's what it means, then I'll be interested to see what they do, because the weird outcomes of 'yeah you need OW bosses to gear up Defense'...

Well, let's just say that I know another game that tried that...[/quote]
I mean, I played a game like that for 12 years :) Not every piece of gear came from a boss, but bosses were definitely the fastest way of getting said gear, so if your guild was able to kill said boss - you, as a new player, would easily get what you need.

I understand that this is not the experience of the predominant mmo gamer population (with wow/ff14 being the largest mmos to date and pretty much giving out their best gear through instances), but it can be done in a good way w/o relying on instances. Especially considering that Intrepid could look at what was good in L2 and what was bad in BDO and find the golden middle between them.

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-22 07:17:47

There's multiple reasons why I'd assume 'not repeatable' isn't as strict as that. What happens when a guild has cleared it and then a new member joins who 'needs to clear it', for example? Presumably they need to be able to take a bunch of members who have cleared it before.
Yeah, I came at it from the completely other side of "everything you need is available in the open world so instanced content is purely for the story's sake and not required at all if you don't care about the story".
If that's what it means, then I'll be interested to see what they do, because the weird outcomes of 'yeah you need OW bosses to gear up Defense'...

Well, let's just say that I know another game that tried that...
I mean, I played a game like that for 12 years :) Not every piece of gear came from a boss, but bosses were definitely the fastest way of getting said gear, so if your guild was able to kill said boss - you, as a new player, would easily get what you need.

I understand that this is not the experience of the predominant mmo gamer population (with wow/ff14 being the largest mmos to date and pretty much giving out their best gear through instances), but it can be done in a good way w/o relying on instances. Especially considering that Intrepid could look at what was good in L2 and what was bad in BDO and find the golden middle between them.

To be clear, I don't know why Ashes has any instanced Content.

I'd assume it was either 'to be challenging while not allowing players to just overwhelm the DPS check' (in which case I'd expect it to be at the top end') or 'just to give casual players some proper challenge' (in which case, the low end).

OW bosses NEED the Mitigation check though.

BDO's last update on Console (2 days ago) put a new drop that everyone is going to want for an event, on one of their World bosses (which for some reason share health across all 'servers').

Today I logged on to check the aforementioned Frame Data, saw the spawn message at the usual time, and saw the death message 2 minutes later (normally at least a 20m kill with the current game population on a weeknight).

I had to check if my clock was off (I hadn't checked the update). After that little doubletake it took me about 30 seconds to go 'FFS what did you all make Nouver drop THIS time?'

Surely enough...

Nouver FUNCTIONALLY has no Mitigation check. If you are good enough you can fight it in gathering gear (I sometimes forget to switch mine out). And so, DPS reigns and it can just be deleted. This outcome is exponential.

Don't make your OW bosses DPS checks, kids, not even in competitive owPvP games (this does not apply to BDO, World Bosses turn the entire server into a no-conflict zone or something, temporarily).

Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-22 07:34:15

To be clear, I don't know why Ashes has any instanced Content.
My assumption so far has been "just for story's sake". It's way easier to tell any kind of story and keep it engaging, if you can present that story in an undisturbed and clean way.

Having some boss talk about lore at you while there's hundreds of people running around yelling shit in chat (or god forbid VC) would take you right out the immersion. Same would go for just having any kind of bosses related to the story. You'd have to either put the boss on a 1 min timer to let anyone clear the story when they get to it, or make it unkillable in some way so that people wouldn't get stuck on this boss during their story quest.

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I'm busier today and don't have time to discuss things with you, so if you make claims like this, there will probably be more responses, and then you will get tired for no benefit.

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