Killing your friend to lower their corruption

Post by George_Black on 2022-07-29 22:40:04

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Post by Noaani on 2022-07-29 23:47:36

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Post by Elder on 2022-07-30 00:36:30

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-30 13:35:16

That was my question B)

And I definitely want them to just include PKers into the flagging rules (as they kinda already are). Make it hard for party/guild groups to protect their PKer. Yes, you can't trade as a Red, but you can still do a controlled kill, so any dropped gear won't be lost.

I think Steven was thinking more about "I'm alone and a PKer and my guildmates are somewhere far away and BHs might get me before my mates can", while my question was about "I'm in a group rn and I PKed someone. Now my mates can immediately remove my corruption (depending on the quantity) and loot anything I drop, so I'm totally safe".

I personally want to avoid that kind of interaction, specially considering that you can't flag against your mates in the current system. I understand that Reds are supposed to be a separate entity within the lore of the game, but I think this is a question of what's better for the gameplay rather than just the story/lore.

Post by Elder on 2022-07-30 15:47:33

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Post by Asgerr on 2022-07-30 16:06:59

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Post by tonewolf on 2022-07-30 18:45:16

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Post by Elder on 2022-07-30 18:54:41

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Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-30 20:13:10

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-30 20:40:53

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Yes, I'm fully aware of how the system works. I'm considering those penalties as the default base penalty. I'd assume that in most cases, if you have friends with you - you gonna try grinding off your corruption and not die. But if you see that a group of people is coming towards you - the safest way to limit the loss of your resources/gear is for your mate to kill you. And I personally don't want that to be the case.
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If they even come close to this kind of design, I dunno how people will react :D

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-30 20:45:44

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-30 20:56:51

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I'm not quite sure what exploit you're talking about :/ Or maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "If you drop corrupted gear you can no longer equip it on your account as its corrupted to your soul."

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-30 20:58:58

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This, mostly.

No matter how many times I review Ashes' design goals in corruption, the only thing I ever find strange about the implementation is the 'only last hit actually gets corrupted' current decision.

But that one actually makes me think sometimes... if the corruption system is moreso meant to deter solo 'griefy' gankers than an organized group of them.

Maybe you're SUPPOSED to be able to just kill your mate to wipe some of their corruption and they just take all the other penalties.

Also am I confused about something? Don't you only start dropping gear after a certain corruption level? I actually don't usually see how these situations even come up. If you were red enough to drop gear, your friends killing you repeatedly is fine, to me?

You take a massive exp hit, but you are coordinated enough to not lose gear too.

If you take that exp hit to 'get rid of your low corruption so you don't have to worry about greens attacking you and making it worse', from your friends instead, isn't that just coordination?

EDIT: Double and triplechecked, seems like 'whether you drop gear when red is RNG' and we have no idea.

Ah yes, RNG, the Classic Curse of The Ancient Others.

Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-30 21:09:26

If you take that exp hit to 'get rid of your low corruption so you don't have to worry about greens attacking you and making it worse', from your friends instead, isn't that just coordination?
There's no coordination though. Your mate (with whom you already were most likely) is just the one to kill you, instead of a BH or a green. BHs lose pretty much any and all of their usefulness, while greens never get any potential Red drops.

And yes, from how Steven answered my question, it definitely feels like he mainly had the "counter solo PKers" thought in mind when he was making changes to the L2's system.

And I personally want this part of the system to be a bit harsher. This would mainly just promote corruption grindoff in guilds and would support BHs soooo much more than the current system. And imo this would be a much more fun "living on the edge" kind of deal, because in L2 clearing some karma when you were in a group was super easy. But it also didn't have BHs and resource drop on death, so this wasn't that big of an issue.

As for gear drop, iirc the higher the amount the higher the chance, but yes, it's ultimately rng.

Post by Asgerr on 2022-07-30 21:13:51

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Post by Azherae on 2022-07-30 21:15:33

If you take that exp hit to 'get rid of your low corruption so you don't have to worry about greens attacking you and making it worse', from your friends instead, isn't that just coordination?
There's no coordination though. Your mate (with whom you already were most likely) is just the one to kill you, instead of a BH or a green. BHs lose pretty much any and all of their usefulness, while greens never get any potential Red drops.

And yes, from how Steven answered my question, it definitely feels like he mainly had the "counter solo PKers" thought in mind when he was making changes to the L2's system.

And I personally want this part of the system to be a bit harsher. This would mainly just promote corruption grindoff in guilds and would support BHs soooo much more than the current system. And imo this would be a much more fun "living on the edge" kind of deal, because in L2 clearing some karma when you were in a group was super easy. But it also didn't have BHs and resource drop on death, so this wasn't that big of an issue.

As for gear drop, iirc the higher the amount the higher the chance, but yes, it's ultimately rng.

Right but Ashes is a game where 'just having your friends with you to begin with' might be considered 'coordination'.

The entire idea is that you don't travel alone, and you preferably travel with a full party of each Archetype for maximum effectiveness.

People losing their gear from going Red temporarily might just be rare. Obviously as the 'one going to be doing all this stuff' it favors me. I just expected (wanted?) it to be different so that players who don't like being smacked around for being in my way without their friends would be more likely to feel like I was 'getting what I deserved', but that doesn't really mean that the gameplay would be better.

Might just be that I'm not supposed to be terribly deterred once I stop caring about exp.

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-30 21:27:53

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There are no helpless innocent gatherers. If they are gathering, they're not helpless.

If they're helpless, then why are they gathering, other than to basically be killed by people who take some stuff?

Maybe the materials they drop are just the price of the bloodport home?

Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-30 21:29:32

Right but Ashes is a game where 'just having your friends with you to begin with' might be considered 'coordination'.
This is where my L2 bias shows too. To me, running in a party is literally the most basic thing you do in an mmo :D The only times I was farming alone in L2 was on high rate servers with automatic buffers and mana pots.
People losing their gear from going Red temporarily might just be rare. Obviously as the 'one going to be doing all this stuff' it favors me. I just expected (wanted?) it to be different so that players who don't like being smacked around for being in my way without their friends would be more likely to feel like I was 'getting what I deserved', but that doesn't really mean that the gameplay would be better.

Might just be that I'm not supposed to be terribly deterred once I stop caring about exp.
Yeah, and that's why I think that making the potential punishment that much harder would be fairly beneficial to the system.

As I see it, constant groups would most likely have a designated "vacuum" member who'll never PK, so resource drops will not be an issue for Reds that are in a party. And if said party has a designated Red, their PK count will be quite high quite often, so gear loss would be quite probable. But due to the current setup, that probability is non-existent, because the party will just clear the Red's corruption as soon as he gets it. Especially if Intrepid allow us to rez the Reds (I'm on the fence about whether I'd like this or not)

But even if we can't rez them, all you gotta do is wait a bit for BHs to run towards you; kill the PKer; loot whatever he drops; he respawns in a random location with a much lower amount of corruption (especially if, while you were waiting for BHs to approach you, you were farming mobs/XP) and cooperate in voice the quickest way to gather up again to clear the rest of the corruption.

But if you couldn't attack your Red mate, now it's a real cat&mouse game of grinding off the corruption, while fighting off BHs in a very coordinated way (if you're trying to minimize your party's corruption) and potentially having other green parties coming to try and get your Red. To me that sounds like a much more fun system.

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-30 21:30:57

Right but Ashes is a game where 'just having your friends with you to begin with' might be considered 'coordination'.
This is where my L2 bias shows too. To me, running in a party is literally the most basic thing you do in an mmo :D The only times I was farming alone in L2 was on high rate servers with automatic buffers and mana pots.
People losing their gear from going Red temporarily might just be rare. Obviously as the 'one going to be doing all this stuff' it favors me. I just expected (wanted?) it to be different so that players who don't like being smacked around for being in my way without their friends would be more likely to feel like I was 'getting what I deserved', but that doesn't really mean that the gameplay would be better.

Might just be that I'm not supposed to be terribly deterred once I stop caring about exp.
Yeah, and that's why I think that making the potential punishment that much harder would be fairly beneficial to the system.

As I see it, constant groups would most likely have a designated "vacuum" member who'll never PK, so resource drops will not be an issue for Reds that are in a party. And if said party has a designated Red, their PK count will be quite high quite often, so gear loss would be quite probable. But due to the current setup, that probability is non-existent, because the party will just clear the Red's corruption as soon as he gets it. Especially if Intrepid allow us to rez the Reds (I'm on the fence about whether I'd like this or not)

But even if we can't rez them, all you gotta do is wait a bit for BHs to run towards you; kill the PKer; loot whatever he drops; he respawns in a random location with a much lower amount of corruption (especially if, while you were waiting for BHs to approach you, you were farming mobs/XP) and cooperate in voice the quickest way to gather up again to clear the rest of the corruption.

But if you couldn't attack your Red mate, now it's a real cat&mouse game of grinding off the corruption, while fighting off BHs in a very coordinated way (if you're trying to minimize your party's corruption) and potentially having other green parties coming to try and get your Red. To me that sounds like a much more fun system.

To each their own, either way is challengers.

The Wonder Has Called Forth New Seeds.

Post by Dygz on 2022-07-30 21:34:29

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Post by Azherae on 2022-07-30 21:38:33

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We can always hope. It'd be a shame to have a game like this and then the regular enemies be pushovers.

They were at least 'okay' in Alpha-1 though.

Post by George_Black on 2022-07-30 22:31:35

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Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-30 22:35:42

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Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-30 22:37:44

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Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-30 22:41:20

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-30 22:47:17

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You do "delvel" though. Your stats go down because your XP debt gets you below your Level value. But, unless the levels matter too much for the character power, I doubt most people will care about 1-2 levels "lost".

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-30 22:58:32

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Post by Dygz on 2022-07-30 23:02:50

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Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-30 23:04:35

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