Dev Discussion #46 - Materials: Less is More or More is Less?

Azherae wrote: »

I think I'm flatly in the middle.

I view this issue as being connected to open world economy and immersion, and so I always would make my suggestions from that perspective.

I like having more different materials because it allows developers more tools to mess with the economy, to inspire players to explore, and it seems like it would be a requirement for Ashes just to keep the Node system economies fresh. It's troublesome to have a lot of items to need to store separately, but I just can't see an enjoyable version of this for me with low itemization.

I also don't think it is necessary to do a lot of very specific items that are only used in one or two things, but how would things like 'Seasonable Gatherables' work across an entire world of Verra if we were so limited?

I also don't really see what a 'wide variety of things for them to be used FOR' would even be, so I guess I will have to wait for Alpha-2 to understand what that would mean. Other than that, I've got lots of opinions on food and far too many economic opinions that will need to be integrated into testing.

What I CAN say is that I don't mind if Fish are similar, but as I always say 'not like BDO please' where all Fish are functionally the same, large categories of meat are the same, etc.

In the end, I just can't imagine what the context of this question is. I don't know what 'fewer' or 'more' is to the Itemization team. I can say that I come from a two games with hundreds of items and that helps me enjoy both the economy (in one of them, anyway) and immersion (sort of). I know I'd be disappointed in 'less than 10 types of ore' and so on.

But I never know how to imagine what a Fantasy MMO world will be willing to 'leave out' until I see the plans, since so many items seem 'required' (Gemstones, for example, gotta be at least 10, right).

I don't tend to be quite focused enough on the actual details of game economies to know the right way to build one. I leave that to Azherae most of the time.

I gotta say though, don't make useless damned items. BDO has many types of trees. This is good. If you don't have variety, it's gonna suck, but they also have a couple varieties that can be used to craft ZERO items. You heard me right. Zero. Their only purpose in game is "sell to NPC, I guess".

This annoys the hell out of me. I still have to collect that tree because of gathering byproduct I need, but then I end up sitting here with a ton of a LITERALLY useless log, which serves NO purpose but to inflate the economy when you sell it.

Variety: Yes please! Many types of wood: Yes please! But give me something to do with them. It's not even hard. Other games do it.

Azherae wrote: »

I think I'm flatly in the middle.

I view this issue as being connected to open world economy and immersion, and so I always would make my suggestions from that perspective.

I like having more different materials because it allows developers more tools to mess with the economy, to inspire players to explore, and it seems like it would be a requirement for Ashes just to keep the Node system economies fresh. It's troublesome to have a lot of items to need to store separately, but I just can't see an enjoyable version of this for me with low itemization.

I also don't think it is necessary to do a lot of very specific items that are only used in one or two things, but how would things like 'Seasonable Gatherables' work across an entire world of Verra if we were so limited?

I also don't really see what a 'wide variety of things for them to be used FOR' would even be, so I guess I will have to wait for Alpha-2 to understand what that would mean. Other than that, I've got lots of opinions on food and far too many economic opinions that will need to be integrated into testing.

What I CAN say is that I don't mind if Fish are similar, but as I always say 'not like BDO please' where all Fish are functionally the same, large categories of meat are the same, etc.

In the end, I just can't imagine what the context of this question is. I don't know what 'fewer' or 'more' is to the Itemization team. I can say that I come from a two games with hundreds of items and that helps me enjoy both the economy (in one of them, anyway) and immersion (sort of). I know I'd be disappointed in 'less than 10 types of ore' and so on.

But I never know how to imagine what a Fantasy MMO world will be willing to 'leave out' until I see the plans, since so many items seem 'required' (Gemstones, for example, gotta be at least 10, right).

Since Azherae's my group's economist, I basically agree with her on all of the above. Item variety is good in principle, but if there are too many things which are basically just interchangeable and don't have different uses, it's irritating.

One thing which I'd want to make sure is taken into account is the balance between the number of different crafting items in the game vs available inventory space. If there are a ton of different items needed for a particular profession, but inventory space is too constrained, high-level crafting becomes tedious and frustrating quickly, since you're constantly trying to juggle stuff around.

Azherae wrote: »

I think I'm flatly in the middle.

I view this issue as being connected to open world economy and immersion, and so I always would make my suggestions from that perspective.

I like having more different materials because it allows developers more tools to mess with the economy, to inspire players to explore, and it seems like it would be a requirement for Ashes just to keep the Node system economies fresh. It's troublesome to have a lot of items to need to store separately, but I just can't see an enjoyable version of this for me with low itemization.

I also don't think it is necessary to do a lot of very specific items that are only used in one or two things, but how would things like 'Seasonable Gatherables' work across an entire world of Verra if we were so limited?

I also don't really see what a 'wide variety of things for them to be used FOR' would even be, so I guess I will have to wait for Alpha-2 to understand what that would mean. Other than that, I've got lots of opinions on food and far too many economic opinions that will need to be integrated into testing.

What I CAN say is that I don't mind if Fish are similar, but as I always say 'not like BDO please' where all Fish are functionally the same, large categories of meat are the same, etc.

In the end, I just can't imagine what the context of this question is. I don't know what 'fewer' or 'more' is to the Itemization team. I can say that I come from a two games with hundreds of items and that helps me enjoy both the economy (in one of them, anyway) and immersion (sort of). I know I'd be disappointed in 'less than 10 types of ore' and so on.

But I never know how to imagine what a Fantasy MMO world will be willing to 'leave out' until I see the plans, since so many items seem 'required' (Gemstones, for example, gotta be at least 10, right).

Well this is what my economist says on the matter and I basically agree. This is the kind of question a studio would ask if they didn't have their own lead economist or lead systems designer. So assuming you listen to mine here is what I have to add:

The main problem with crafting in other mmos I have is that you don't normally have to commit to a specialization for different content in your build or your time investments.

It's not really having too much or too little in the way of itemization. There are systems that 'simplify' the build and investment choices on BOTH ends of the temization spectrum BDO(low item) and Neverwinter (high) come most readily to mind, but so does Dark Ages of Camelot. As a result of this you have builds that can be used on many different activities. Demand for whatever the meta items are for that build becomes the dominant activity and people quickly optimize the fun out of the game and it causes content and itemization shrinkage.

Having more items can 'help' but it also can cause many 'noob traps' in terms of optimization if you are not careful. This matters for Ashes specifically because in Ashes you literally cannot AFFORD to do something a group of people would not be interested in for whatever reason. You need a group to do most content safely and efficiently. Many people will claim this is resolved by increases in prices driving someone to take the 'noob trap' niche at an eventual profit, there is a certain lack of fun that can happen as a result of knowing you are doing an inefficient thing and are generally either alone or 'so easy to gank due to the lack of attractiveness to group play' you have to play it less 'adventurous'.

So yes, too much itemization can cause noob traps, and too little or too little difference in ways to meaningfully perform the content involved are bad for any economy. If you focus on a niche first approach and consider all the different forms of investments to obtain the materials, and what the success condition FEELS like once achieving it, then you'll probably head in a more immersive direction.

Example of a good system that has a mix of all of these things? FFXI crystals. You need to go to different areas and hunt specific enemies to get the different elemental crystals that act as a catalyst for crafting. There is a lot of overlap in how and when they are used across many different 'artisan professions' and there is a lot of overlap as to where to obtain them. But the fact that there are only 8 isn't a hindrance to how good they feel because there are niches for farming them, and different builds are naturally better at getting others without necessarily 'restricting you from pursuing them if you need a few entirely'. Obviously since they are crafting catalysts they still require other items in the recipe, but it's just an example of the principles I'm talking about in action.

Azherae wrote: »

I think I'm flatly in the middle.

I view this issue as being connected to open world economy and immersion, and so I always would make my suggestions from that perspective.

I like having more different materials because it allows developers more tools to mess with the economy, to inspire players to explore, and it seems like it would be a requirement for Ashes just to keep the Node system economies fresh. It's troublesome to have a lot of items to need to store separately, but I just can't see an enjoyable version of this for me with low itemization.

I also don't think it is necessary to do a lot of very specific items that are only used in one or two things, but how would things like 'Seasonable Gatherables' work across an entire world of Verra if we were so limited?

I also don't really see what a 'wide variety of things for them to be used FOR' would even be, so I guess I will have to wait for Alpha-2 to understand what that would mean. Other than that, I've got lots of opinions on food and far too many economic opinions that will need to be integrated into testing.

What I CAN say is that I don't mind if Fish are similar, but as I always say 'not like BDO please' where all Fish are functionally the same, large categories of meat are the same, etc.

In the end, I just can't imagine what the context of this question is. I don't know what 'fewer' or 'more' is to the Itemization team. I can say that I come from a two games with hundreds of items and that helps me enjoy both the economy (in one of them, anyway) and immersion (sort of). I know I'd be disappointed in 'less than 10 types of ore' and so on.

But I never know how to imagine what a Fantasy MMO world will be willing to 'leave out' until I see the plans, since so many items seem 'required' (Gemstones, for example, gotta be at least 10, right).

Since this whole "less is better" or "more is better" mostly depends on the kind of MMO you're building, I tend to leave things to her cuz she's good at working out the more precise answers.

For me, the bigger pain point about items is that I've been spoiled by FFXI in a specific way. In that game, you often have situations where there's X amount of a valuable loot dropping mob every day per server in that zone, and therefore Y amount of the related valuable item craftable, which also ties back to how many parties a zone can fit etc. So when there's no more hunting parties in a zone whose loot the crafters of the server are waiting on, those crafters end up becoming painfully aware of what is going on in some other zone across the world.

Similarly, in FFXI all crafting requires crystals of the right elements for that craft. You can get way more crystals than usual by paying attention to the season and zones because that's how the elementals that drop a lot of them spawn. Because of elementals being tied to weather, when you run short on crystals you end up noticing which season it is and get to make meaningful decisions about whether to farm them yourself or wait for others to.

What ends up happening in that game is that whether you try to or not, you end up being more aware of the game's world and what is happening in it sometimes purely because of economic factors. And THAT makes the game and its items feel more real. And I really just don't feel like playing a game that doesn't stand up to this standard. I will still play a game that lacks this, but only while there's a shortage of good MMOs, not because I'm cool with it.

So I would say for me the answer is 'whatever item amount is necessary to achieve that immersive effect', but the amount is a small part of the puzzle.