Concern Regarding Dodge As A Mobility Tool

We have not received permission from Blindside to share the quoted post.

I should probably warn you that the person you are talking to does not quite believe in 'Frame Data' or any of that in terms of the specifics of what you are outlining here.

You might want to approach the conversation slightly differently (I have no suggestions, I don't do well when I try) to avoid going around in circles, rather than getting into the technical weeds of reaction times and frame data/movement frame cognition.

If I understood the issue correctly, this whole thread could be resolved by tying the dodges to mana You wanna dodge 10 times in a row? Do it and spend half your mana. I'm just gonna walk after you like Jason Voorhees and once you're out of mana - you're dead.

And with every archetype having some mana reduction abilities, you'd have to think twice before just spamming anything in your kit. I'd even assume that at least one melee archetype would have a "increase mana usage of movement abilities (or just dodges)" ability to prevent the exact issue of this thread.

NiKr wrote: »

If I understood the issue correctly, this whole thread could be resolved by tying the dodges to mana You wanna dodge 10 times in a row? Do it and spend half your mana. I'm just gonna walk after you like Jason Voorhees and once you're out of mana - you're dead.

And with every archetype having some mana reduction abilities, you'd have to think twice before just spamming anything in your kit. I'd even assume that at least one melee archetype would have a "increase mana usage of movement abilities (or just dodges)" ability to prevent the exact issue of this thread.

Insufficient, because movement economy always trumps action economy, the game is a group game, and the premise of the thread is 'players on both sides being able to use the same tools repeatedly'.

Your walkspeed has to be better than theirs for this to work without triggering what Blindside is referring to.

Azherae wrote: »

Insufficient, because movement economy always trumps action economy, the game is a group game, and the premise of the thread is 'players on both sides being able to use the same tools repeatedly'.

Your walkspeed has to be better than theirs for this to work without triggering what Blindside is referring to.

If they're just running away, it'd be completely fine for them to outpace my walking. But in the context of a fight, if they still want to beat me but waste most of their mana on dodging my attacks instead of saving the mana for their own attacks - I'd assume I could just keep walking and doing a hit here or a gap-closer there until they run out. And if we assume that range classes have a lower cost on dodges (cause kiting theme and all that), then it'd come down to the balance of hp vs mp, on top of the gap closer availability for melee classes.

I just don't really see how a stamina-based system would resolve it, unless you only have enough stamina for 1-2 dodges and the regen rate is abysmal. Having dodges at base speed kinda defeats the purpose of them for me. Though maybe I'm just too used to the kiting mechanics of L2 and that kind of design is too outdated now (most likely is).

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Insufficient, because movement economy always trumps action economy, the game is a group game, and the premise of the thread is 'players on both sides being able to use the same tools repeatedly'.

Your walkspeed has to be better than theirs for this to work without triggering what Blindside is referring to.

If they're just running away, it'd be completely fine for them to outpace my walking. But in the context of a fight, if they still want to beat me but waste most of their mana on dodging my attacks instead of saving the mana for their own attacks - I'd assume I could just keep walking and doing a hit here or a gap-closer there until they run out. And if we assume that range classes have a lower cost on dodges (cause kiting theme and all that), then it'd come down to the balance of hp vs mp, on top of the gap closer availability for melee classes.

I just don't really see how a stamina-based system would resolve it, unless you only have enough stamina for 1-2 dodges and the regen rate is abysmal. Having dodges at base speed kinda defeats the purpose of them for me. Though maybe I'm just too used to the kiting mechanics of L2 and that kind of design is too outdated now (most likely is).

I too, hope that Ashes is a game where just 'running away from your opponent' results in a loss of the friction that led to the PvP.

However, that will depend heavily on the PvP design PRINCIPLES which we do not, in fact, have yet. We have a decent idea of the intention relative to 'actually killing a target' but nothing relative to the principles for 'loss when kiting or feinting'.

As Blindside notes, in open world games (for now, ignore engagements in dungeons, for example), this will become an issue. It was an issue in Alpha-1 Sieges, with the only saving grace being that Sieges had a very SMALL loss-part to 'just running'.

It wasn't enough for most things though, because running is, in a team/group game, usually 'regrouping'. 1v1 balance cannot be the priority here, by Intrepid's own intent, which is probably where OP's concern comes from.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Please note that the point of the post is the problem that arises when the opponent explicitly intends to NOT fight and waste time because it is somehow connected to their win condition, and 'how easily this can be done by all classes if a strong universal dodge is applied.

I think that, at this point, you're just not looking at the same thing at all.

As evidenced by your response to #2 and #3.

I will make one attempt at reframing it based on what I know of you, therefore.

"Either there will be a build that has more distance/dodges than any class can keep up with, or the opposite will happen."

There must be SOME build which has 'the most dodges/mobility', for WHATEVER reason. This will then become 'the build you use to troll people and escape and not fight', if that is a useful part of PvP. There is no sensible way to make the majority of builds have enough chase tools to keep up with THAT build.

For some of us, this is a problem.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

It was the OP that referenced frame data and I clarified to them that you are not a person who perceives that Frame Data is important in the same way that they were referencing it. I was only trying to help the conversation remain in the 'useful' category.

I believe it's probably clear enough to @Blindside by now, though, based on this post, so I thank you for skipping all that.

Azherae wrote: »

For some of us, this is a problem.

Oh, this is another reason why I'm fine with frequent dodges (as long as they're limited). Because my L2 class was exactly that kind of "build" Literally the most mobile class in L2 at that point, could escape from pretty much any other class, and with enough skill you could outpace the same class too.

Though that's in part why I want a limiter on how long this kind of build can do what they can do. A bit of a turtle vs the hare situation. The quick build might be able to win a sprint, but it can't quite win a marathon. Though this obviously ties back to mana regen values, and if those are really high - there's no real point in anything I'm saying

We have not received permission from Ace1234 to share the quoted post.

To be clearer, when I mentioned this before, I was trying to clarify that the poster in question does not subscribe to the notion that frame data directly impacts the gameplay experience.

I do not believe that insisting on it will lead to anything, based on my knowledge of how Mag7 plays games where frame data is relevant, I can confirm that the particular approach taken is not 'one that uses the technical concepts related to Frame Data'.

In fact, Mag's play consistently indicates that his style is true to his principles as they are showcased here, mostly ignoring the related concepts in battle, and accepting the outcome of that, win or lose.

That's why I think it would be very difficult to approach this conversation from the perspective of 'insisting that Frame Data is relevant'. Not in the sense of 'well let's use something else less precise', but in the sense of 'you are talking to a person that goes almost entirely by gut feeling about how quick/useful any given option is and ignores the underlying data entirely'.