Bidding is a terrible way to handle freeholds

Post by Azherae on 2023-07-01 15:07:06

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And this is where I was too.

Where 'standing up' the Freehold is an opportunity cost.

Where the 'average player' who doesn't care about it can look at the huge economic investment and go 'nope that's not for me I'll just kill mobs or work as a mercenary and live in an apartment in town' and that would be the reason they would not do it.

And where the biggest competitive guild would be able to get all the 'good spots near the current good nodes' and that's their reward for being so organized. Everyone else has to 'make do out in the wilderness'.

Now we're at 'big competitive guilds have reason to just throw time/money at any sufficiently loyal player to get a Freehold just to have control of it with the intention of profiting'. Bonus points if it is related to Citizenship anywhere. Double Landgrab go!

Post by Ludullu on 2023-07-01 15:10:32

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Sry, didn't notice the message before.

Obviously even a casual player can get their hands on a freehold. It'll just take them years of playing the game and not spending money on anything else. Just as it is the case with any other item in the game that has even a slightly limited or low amount.

The "it's always a guild thing" comes from a, as it seems to me, a logical conclusion that guilds would want to buy freeholds, so your competition, as a solo player, would be whole guilds of people. At which point the time scale required for you to acquire a freehold becomes, in fact, monumental.

Post by Azherae on 2023-07-01 15:13:53

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Sry, didn't notice the message before.

Obviously even a casual player can get their hands on a freehold. It'll just take them years of playing the game and not spending money on anything else. Just as it is the case with any other item in the game that has even a slightly limited or low amount.

The "it's always a guild thing" comes from a, as it seems to me, a logical conclusion that guilds would want to buy freeholds, so your competition, as a solo player, would be whole guilds of people. At which point the time scale required for you to acquire a freehold becomes, in fact, monumental.

This is not how this works though?

Like, people have said in this very thread 'it's as if they didn't learn from FF14's mistakes'.

This is absolutely not how this works in practice because it's saying 'you can get some stuff when the game starts to die/there is enough churn'.

But the ones who stay from the beginning just keep winning.

It comes back to Opportunity vs Necessity again. This works in EVE and similar games because those games are about 'being out in a truly huge near-unlimited space'. Fantasy MMORPGs on the other hand are a fail case for this design type.

Post by Fantmx on 2023-07-01 15:15:22

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Post by Ludullu on 2023-07-01 15:17:13

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It's "said" in the description of what a freehold is. It's a non-instanced plot of physical in-game land. That land is not endless, hence the freehold space is limited.

That space is then reduced even more by other features of freeholds. Their size (formerly 0.5acre). The required distance between the freeholds. The "no freeholds on roads, near POIs, right up to nodes".

So it's only logical to conclude that the amount of freeholds is fairly limited (definitely nowhere near 50k). At which point we realize that the guilds that would want to buy up all of them would have the ability to do so, because they'll always have way more resources than a solo player.

Any given player can always put in the effort of playing a lot or joining others or socializing or whatever else and get their freehold, but you'll still either need a MONUMENTAL amount of time as a solo player or just a bit of effort as a guildy.

Post by Azherae on 2023-07-01 15:21:53

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It's "said" in the description of what a freehold is. It's a non-instanced plot of physical in-game land. That land is not endless, hence the freehold space is limited.

That space is then reduced even more by other features of freeholds. Their size (formerly 0.5acre). The required distance between the freeholds. The "no freeholds on roads, near POIs, right up to nodes".

So it's only logical to conclude that the amount of freeholds is fairly limited (definitely nowhere near 50k). At which point we realize that the guilds that would want to buy up all of them would have the ability to do so, because they'll always have way more resources than a solo player.

Any given player can always put in the effort of playing a lot or joining others or socializing or whatever else and get their freehold, but you'll still either need a MONUMENTAL amount of time as a solo player or just a bit of effort as a guildy.

No because you are supposed to scale it so that owning too much of things creates Necessity but not Opportunity so that people naturally hit a limit.

This is basic Econ for every game of this type. Expansion hits its limit when the scale of opportunity diminishes but Necessity stays the same or rises. Or, the easier way for most designers is to explicitly find a way (usually unrealistic) to make Necessity scale while Opportunity stays the same (this is less effective).

There are definitely players who don't think a lot about this sort of thing, they just 'assume a Dev can make something that works and is fun or they won't do it'.

And then you get an Econ Designer who does just that; 'makes it fun or makes it go away'.

The limitation aspect of this is among the least important. Learning how to manage 'there is a limited amount of X and multiple people want it' is the absolute baseline for MMO Econ design, if you don't manage that, you haven't even started yet.

Post by Ludullu on 2023-07-01 15:26:09

The limitation aspect of this is among the least important. Learning how to manage 'there is a limited amount of X and multiple people want it' is the absolute baseline for MMO Econ design, if you don't manage that, you haven't even started yet.
Or you are purposefully avoiding making that kind of design :)

But as I said before, I'm near certain that Intrepid will walk this back within the next few months, if not weeks. And Bill will potentially be the one to push Steven towards doing so. The backlash is too great at this point.

Did you see what I suggested? Would that work in your opinion?
And to also be clear, I was making a joke at Depraved's expense, because his math is shit.

I do still think that assuming that everyone would have a freehold was foolish, but I'd prefer if Intrepid just split their freeholds into the building types they mentioned on the stream. This will obviously still fuck over a ton of cosmetics buyers, but they've done that already so alas.

We have housing, processing, service. Make those 3 types of freeholds, with 3 different sizes (0.5acre(or even smaller) - 1.5acre), with 3 different acquisition methods, with 3 different amounts of slots for them.

Have a hard quest and a nice plain cost for the house. Have a profession-based check/requirement for the processing. And have a bid-based party/family content of business freeholds.

Anyone who wants can get a house, which takes up barely any space and has almost no distance limit between buildings. Hardcore processors have their first come first serve slots with "enough" space for several buildings related to their profession. And business dudes have predetermined high value locations in each node that guilds can fight over.

I feel like that'd be the most fair, while being absolutely unfair to literally anyone who just so happened to get a business cosmetic skin. Those should be provided a refund, or ideally even a doubling of their embers.
This thing

Post by Azherae on 2023-07-01 15:28:16

The limitation aspect of this is among the least important. Learning how to manage 'there is a limited amount of X and multiple people want it' is the absolute baseline for MMO Econ design, if you don't manage that, you haven't even started yet.
Or you are purposefully avoiding making that kind of design :)

But as I said before, I'm near certain that Intrepid will walk this back within the next few months, if not weeks. And Bill will potentially be the one to push Steven towards doing so. The backlash is too great at this point.

Did you see what I suggested? Would that work in your opinion?
And to also be clear, I was making a joke at Depraved's expense, because his math is shit.

I do still think that assuming that everyone would have a freehold was foolish, but I'd prefer if Intrepid just split their freeholds into the building types they mentioned on the stream. This will obviously still fuck over a ton of cosmetics buyers, but they've done that already so alas.

We have housing, processing, service. Make those 3 types of freeholds, with 3 different sizes (0.5acre(or even smaller) - 1.5acre), with 3 different acquisition methods, with 3 different amounts of slots for them.

Have a hard quest and a nice plain cost for the house. Have a profession-based check/requirement for the processing. And have a bid-based party/family content of business freeholds.

Anyone who wants can get a house, which takes up barely any space and has almost no distance limit between buildings. Hardcore processors have their first come first serve slots with "enough" space for several buildings related to their profession. And business dudes have predetermined high value locations in each node that guilds can fight over.

I feel like that'd be the most fair, while being absolutely unfair to literally anyone who just so happened to get a business cosmetic skin. Those should be provided a refund, or ideally even a doubling of their embers.
This thing

I don't see any of this as necessary but as noted in the other thread at this point I'm basically just 'insulting Steven's design sense' I feel.

And that's a sign that it's time to pack it up.

Post by Fantmx on 2023-07-01 15:29:52

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Post by Ludullu on 2023-07-01 15:32:11

I don't see any of this as necessary but as noted in the other thread at this point I'm basically just 'insulting Steven's design sense' I feel.

And that's a sign that it's time to pack it up.
I mean, I'm one of the biggest proponents of his designs on this forum, but even I can see when he goes against the generally accepted norms and preferences of the genre (even if I disagree with those). Fwiw I don't think what you wrote there was offensive. I saw it as a matter-of-fact state of the design, in the context of other games in the genre that attempted these features.

Post by Depraved on 2023-07-01 16:08:05

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Post by Depraved on 2023-07-01 16:10:36

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Post by Songcaller on 2023-07-01 16:11:43

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Post by Depraved on 2023-07-01 16:19:45

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Post by Fantmx on 2023-07-01 16:37:01

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Post by Liniker on 2023-07-01 16:43:54

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Post by Depraved on 2023-07-01 16:47:53

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Post by Fantmx on 2023-07-01 17:08:00

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Post by Depraved on 2023-07-01 17:10:03

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Post by Ludullu on 2023-07-01 17:14:48

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The only spin required is "that effort might include joining a guild". That's it. Is there a quote where Steven says "any solo player will be able to get a freehold completely on their own"?

Post by Mag7spy on 2023-07-01 17:27:57

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Post by Ruerik on 2023-07-01 17:40:01

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Post by Depraved on 2023-07-01 17:45:05

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Post by Raven016 on 2023-07-01 17:45:09

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Post by ItsFayne on 2023-07-01 17:47:26

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Post by Mag7spy on 2023-07-01 17:51:59

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Post by CROW3 on 2023-07-01 17:54:28

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Post by Mag7spy on 2023-07-01 17:55:06

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Post by Azherae on 2023-07-01 17:59:00

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The point is not to make it so that every player can own land.

The point would be to make it that not every player wants to own land, and then tie people's desire to own land to 'how available land is'.

i.e. when a big guild buys up 6 plots, that they find themselves going 'damn, no one wants these for high prices, and it's not a benefit to us to hold onto them, we probably have to sell them for cheap'.

Post by Depraved on 2023-07-01 18:03:30

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