Is 64 classes still a good idea?

So, in the interest of 'this topic having something other than Combat Trackers (again) to talk about'.

I don't know how many classes exist in Ashes, but I personally believe that even with a strict definition of Classes, it can be considered to be more than 8.

Even if you take games with highly flexible design, they end up having to come up with 'grouping type terms' to help players understand 'which things are similar enough to each other to be interchangeable'. Predecessor has 32 Heroes currently, and one could claim there are 5 roles (the roles you choose at game start). But really, there are at least 9 'types', and it's more like 22-27.

In an MMORPG there would be a lot more flexibility, but that flexibility exists in Pred too. The 'information' you are receiving by having the label is telling you what to expect and not expect. So 'Offlane' can be played by a 'Tank', a 'Fighter', and depending on skill, an 'Assassin'. And Support can be played by a Mage (CC heavy), Tank, 'Enchanter', 'Debuffer', or a really determined 'Instigator'.

Those are 'different ways of achieving the same thing'. So in Ashes, if Mage/Mage increases damage and control centered on the enemy, and Mage/Summoner increases damage and control centered on a position, we can probably think of these as interchangeable most of the time. There might be a way to optimize for 'maximum area control' on Mage/Summoner, and 'maximum enemy control' on Archmage, but if these two built largely the same abilities with the same goal, I wouldn't be surprised if a player who 'only played Control Mage' would only have specs for these. For some people this would mean 'these are basically the same class with different names', like comparing 'Sharpshooter' characters in Predecessor, but you'd still have different optimization options, and maybe a few unique or style-shifting augments.

But, by raw numbers, you could probably come up with 30 at least.

Since they don't intend for most of us to unlock all skills, we can equate it to the 87 or so (roughly, it's complicated) full strength Items in Predecessor as well. Some are basic, some are similar, but there's still about 64 unique ones, and they often have interesting interactions. So interesting, that if you apply them to different characters, via different base abilities, you 'create more functions'.

Ashes only has 32 Archetype Based augment schools. That's a whole 32 more to go!

Whether or not 64 classes is 'difficult to make' really comes down to whether or not players get hung up on the fact that because almost all Tanks have Javelin, it means that the one using it to Instigate, and the one using it to Protect, are the same. And that, in turn, will probably be true if the only differences are damage or mild debuffs if they target the same person.

But Riktor (Jungle) and Riktor (Support) don't even use their abilities in the same order far less 'have the same overall effects and goals when they build items to enhance those abilities'. So it's all perspective, really. If 'all Riktor are the same' to you, then Jeff's statement is right. If 'Riktor Offlane' and 'Riktor Support' are different enough that you respond to them differently and synergize with them differently, then Steven's statements are right.

Either way, the number of 'classes' can be determined by the number of Guides. If we find ourselves with lots of Guides that say 'you can pick any Secondary to use with this ability set and gear, it functions about the same' (and it's actually right) then sure, we only have 8 classes.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Mag, the phrase "we can agree to disagree" isn't meant to be used to just put any opinion back next to any other opinion for absolutely "free" without any work on the part of you. It's not a catch-all for an argument.

The reason I say this is because Noaani here actually put in some effort and highlighted an important point. It is important even if you literally don't agree with anything he says at any point. Which is that some people get more social interaction out of combat trackers and based on what you've said, it seems you gain less. Let's perhaps at least engage with that earnestly? Where does that difference come from in your opinion?

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Let's shift perspective here a bit.

You like pvp, right? I'd assume you consider it a fairly social feature, cause people group up and work together to fight enemies, and they can find great rivals to respect and potentially even befriend for years to come.

So let's say a person says that they find pvp mmo utterly unsocial. And when you ask them why they think so they say "several of my friends played pvp mmos and they'd always get kicked from parties/guilds for being too weak, and then they'd get killed in pvp because they were alone".

Would you say that this person is factually incorrect?

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As has been pointed out before, logs are purely there to review what happened w/o needless arguments about the facts.

In a big pvp every person will have at least 5 things to look at/out for, so tracking all the actions of every of your mates is not really feasible. And as Azherae likes to say, quite a lot of people have an upper limit on how much info they can process at any given moment in time. And mass pvp (and especially mass pvx) puts people beyond that limit quite often, with several dmg sources, several dmg targets, several buff/debuff trackings, etc etc.

And even with the current pace of combat, noticing all potential happenings in an encounter would be almost impossible. Which is why having at least even a basic log is a good thing for people to know how to play better (party play included).

I don't necessarily agree with Azherae's group and Noaani on the detailness of that log, but that's gonna be a whole different discussion when we get to test it in A2.

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I think they've specifically said that not all Augment Schools can be attached to every skill, so we might be a bit more limited there.

There's also the option to simply not have the Augment do 'what you'd expect'. For example, there's a Mage skill that does a line of earth damage and then knocks up (this may no longer be current but it's a general example), and applying 'Teleport' to this, might increase the knock-up, or teleport the enemy instead.

This would lead to some situations where your augmented skill is LESS obviously useful (think 'Gift of the Magi + Teleport Augment causes the players to swap positions, which you might not always want) but you'd still have the options.

Since 'making an ability that is seldom used and isn't consistently strong' is technically 'better' than 'just not bothering to make it', I would moreso expect the 'Gift of The Magi Teleswap' to exist, but then nearly no one be expected to use it as their normal build.