Supporting PvE Raiders in Ashes

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

Yes, it's not an acceptable argument for you, who're used to how EQ2 (and instanced games) did things.

To me it's an absolutely normal thing, because that's how it was in L2. I dunno how it was in AA. Maybe they had huge dungeons or didn't have any at all. But if it had "enough content for the entire server", then we'll just have to see which of his inspirations Steven will use for Ashes.

I know that you'll say it'd be dumb to not have content for all, just as Mag would say that it's dumb to not have some modern design in the game, and just as any WoWer would say that it's dumb to have pvp in the game.

I'll just sit here and see what we end up with, because I'm the special kind of dumb that's ok with things that everyone else is not. I would instead prefer them to be that dumb way, because that's what I like. But if the game just so happens to have hundreds of dungeon rooms - all the better for me, because I can sit in one place and grind my own mobs w/o a single person bothering me.

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

I definitely see you point, I just don't think that it'd be a good design for a game that wants to have an owpvp system that is in any way justified.

If everyone has their own piece of content at any and all times - there's no reason to fight over said content, because fighting only happens over a scarce thing. I'd imagine everyone having content also impacts economy (or at least completely changes its design), but that's an Azherae topic, so I might be wrong in that assumption.

If Intrepid plan on giving everyone content I see no point in having a corruption system. We already have full separation of majority of source of pvp from the corruption system and the system itself will supposedly have such hard penalties that barely anyone will be utilizing it (which in turn makes BH pointless). So if we, on top of that, have all the content at once - why even have corruption. It adds nothing to the game but senseless killing by career PKers and bullies.

I would find it nearing on dumbassery if we have that much content. Because I can already see people complaining (even more than we already get) about the PKers, cause PKing in a game that has no real reason to PK will be seen as highly illogical.

Iirc WoW either had a change to the honor points or smth like that, where killing lowbies didn't reward anything, but I think people still kept killing and it was obviously seen as the shittiest thing in the game (I thiiiink I'm remembering this correctly). Ashes having too much content would achieve the same situation imo.

We already have enough contradictions in the design as is. My feedback to Intrepid - don't add yet another one.

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

The funny thing is, I know for sure that conflict goes away when there's enough content to go around, because I've played on L2 servers with low population, where there was always enough farming spots for the amount of people that went after it. And no one fought each other, because there was no point in doing so. It was always more beneficial to just sit in your spot and farm.

Grudges only appear when there's soft friction between people. PvP events might create some, but outside of said events one side will always be at the benefit of "why should I fight back? that dumbass will just get corrupted and fuck himself over". So those grudges will be addressed in the pvp events rather than in the open world.

What I "get" is that you simply want a different game. If you can persuade Steven to change his vision to that game - good for you. Right now I don't see that happening, which is the exact reason why I don't see your preferred design happening.

Steven's been saying "this game is not for everyone" for years now. Yet here you are trying to make me get that the game should be for everyone

Which makes it even funnier that Mag liked your post. Real funny times we're living in.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Why fight if there's always content though? What are you fighting for at that point? And why waste time on fighting when you can just farm to be stronger for more meaningful content.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Then you disagree with Noaani. His point is that people will fight "just cause" and not for friction reasons, because there's gonna be no friction due to abundance of content.

And as for mats, we'll have to see to which extent the mat difference matter, especially when it comes to boss mob drops.

This does bring another question related to semi-specialized loot. @Noaani , would it matter if the bosses you farmed on your runs dropped better quality mats or do you care more about the sheer fact that you can farm bosses nearly non-stop?

You said that you'd want specialized mats to drop from higher tier of bosses and I can agree with that, but Mag brought up a good point. We'll supposedly have a range of mat tiers in loot tables, so I could definitely see people trying to fight for only the highest tier of mats. But then the question would be, how would those mats be distributed throughout the multiple locations that you plan on running between?

Cause as I see it, if my party plans to farm the best bones and those best bones only drop from mob/boss in a skeleton dungeon - anyone else who comes there after us would not have the content to farm, because we'd be clearing anything there is to clear (or let's say there's enough for 3 parties so the 4th doesn't have content).

Would you see this as bad design or smth normal?

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

I assumed we were talking about general population mobs (of which these small dungeon bosses would be). Of course weeklies had competition, because in L2 they were singular, so only one could be farmed per week.

And that was the "quality" content.

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

Because imo dungeons should be that rarer content. They should be the penultimate content in the game, with weeklies and the like being the ultimate one.

We'll still have overworld mobs, quests, artisanry, all the pvp events, etc.

But dungeons should be smth that people work towards. They should be the hardest non-big boss content in the game. And that kind of content should be rarer than overworld stuff.

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

I'm too practical to see a reason for you two to fight each other. To me, a difference in opinions should never lead to a fight. Of course others are different and good for them, but I see no point in wasting my time on a fight w/o a benefit.

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

My main point from the start has been "pvx is the content". Removing the reason for why you can't access smth is part of the content you want to access, because it's a whole package rather than 2 separate packages.

You disagree with that and think that Steven will see the error of his ways and will change the game to the preference of the majority. Right now I doubt that.

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

Which is the difference in our opinion and why we have a different outlook on their design. I expect that by sheer volume of space dungeons would be roughly 1/5 of the overworld. Yes, they'd still be big and all, but there's simply way more space for stuff outside of them. Which is why going into a dungeon should be the last thing you do at each step of your progress (be it lvls, gear, artisanry or whatever).

You seem to want them to be the same as overworld.

This is why I said that I'm simply gonna wait till Intrepid show what they want them to be. They've shown a few dungeons in the past, but I assume those were barely populated at the time, cause if that was the planned amount of mobs then the content would be even rarer than what I'd want.

In other words, I want the same thing as you. General population mobs/bosses to be abundant as hell, while quality stuff is rarer and peak content is singular. It's just that our views on the definition of those things seems to differ.

We have not received permission from Otr to share the quoted post.

PvP players are also not the TA Which is why Steven keeps calling it a PvX game and not a pvp one.