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Post by Azherae on 2021-06-11 09:21:02
New post because the Combat Discussion has gotten deep and this is a philosophical thing that doesn't affect the mechanics as much anyway. Discussion in that thread has hit a point where some definition of this, is needed, but it probably shouldn't happen in that thread. In this case I'm giving the options, they're limited because they're feedback around the Compilation in that thread, if you want something else entirely, expect a discussion on balance. Here's the options: 1. Reduced cooldowns on all Class Abilities used from Action Target mode. Reasoning/Lore/Expected Result: The user is a strong combatant in ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-11 09:42:57
Well, the request was a matter of how much time the Devs spend on each. They've got quite a while before Alpha-2, and 5 weeks until Alpha-1, and we don't know the status of their current build for the Combat Revamp. For reticle stickiness considerations, I posted a different thread that is related to philosophy that might matter to what this Compilation suggests. Anyway, I would do this/have been doing this by thinking specifically about 'what should a class be able to do without any reliance on its primary weapon?'. Even if it implies that they have some secondary ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 00:56:32
Quicknote from today's siege testing. Without Brace, group fights with multiple tanks turn into 'footsies', even at defensive positions, with each group carefully wiggling back and forth to see who can grab who with Javelin the easiest. No obvious counterplays exist at this time. Note that on a personal level, this isn't a complaint, if anything, the opposite. Since my team are fighting game players and find this quite easy to do, it let us dominate a lot, in situations that I feel should otherwise have been more balanced. The opponent groups had much more potential damage output, but ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 01:04:23
Right now, the focus isn't on combat balance, so please bear that in mind relative to my answer. 1. Only Tanks have this ability, which actually makes it even more 'footsies', but explaining why is... about as difficult as explaining that concept in fighting games. 2. It appears to affect everyone equally and basically no matter what they are doing (which is the thing that I figure might matter in balance). It's reasonable that there is a benefit to having a well balanced group, obviously, so please consider that I'm not really talking about 'my group being well put ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 04:33:43
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat#Animation_cancelling as you know. @Cold 0ne FTB What do you mean by 'locking system'? Is this supposed to be a sticky reticle or 'tab target' on someone you've targeted for a heal once? And of course, any explanation you have as to how exactly animation canceling raises the skill ceiling or adds depth, is appreciated. You can be as technical as you like, I play characters like Seth in Under Night, so I think I can probably get the gist of whatever you mention without necessarily playing the game you use for your example.
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 04:56:03
I'm not sure why one would want considerably more mechanical challenge though, unless it is adding some element of vulnerability during the execution that is meant to create decision structures. I don't want to start the usual 'fighting game' side of this debate here too, so instead, tell me which of these three things you're talking about (so that other posters can understand what you care about). You don't need to understand what any of the 'moves' in question are, they're just button presses. Rhythm: My base combo for Seth when done at minimum range is a rhythm game. ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 05:10:31
Functionally, all systems favor the experienced. If we want to argue that Action targeting shouldn't be a requirement for effective play, we'd probably be better off talking about latency, fatigue over time, or resultant technical imbalance. If we want to argue that Action targeting should be rewarded in any way at all, we can look at what Intrepid has said (more relying on wiki now, no, I didn't watch all the Livestreams/Podcasts to verify these): Damage. Charge up time. CC effects. Cooldown. Energy consumption. Cost to spec. Attack range will likely remain the same; as it is driven by ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 05:31:03
Most fighting games, especially the older, 'nostalgic' ones, barely have any of this at all, and the skill is heavily skewed toward positioning. Without going too much into theory, long difficult combos that a player has to practice, serve one specific purpose in such games (not all of them, some of them are just 'rhythm game combo meters') "I am going to demonstrate to you how large a mistake you just made, you have given me such a large opening that I can use my most devastating practiced skill." The amount of practice required is a psychological trick. It's ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 05:55:17
I think you misunderstood me, and since the word from the Devs is just 'no', then I have no reason to engage on the matter if you don't need any help relative to getting whatever it is that you want. If you 'just want animation canceling' then the answer given to you by Intrepid at this time, is 'no'. If you 'just want it to be more challenging', mechanically or otherwise, there will be arguments (not from me, I won't bother you more) as to why Animation Cancelling isn't the way to do that. It's been studied. I hope ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 05:58:21
I'll note you both as basically saying: 5 - Don't give Action Combat any bonuses other than Action Targeting itself. This is only because you didn't give any other numbers, so I can't draw any other conclusion at the moment. Do you have any opinions on 'sticky' reticles?
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 10:46:33
Basically this is how it works. Can make healing 'interesting'. This is part of the reason for asking because of how 'sticky' reticles work in this situation is different to how straight Tab Targeting works. It's also the reason why 'Stat-Affected Sticky Reticle + AimLock After Sticking + (from Skyra) possibly Homing aspect' would still work differently and possibly require more coordination than a full Tab Target system. So far, unfortunately it seems like those who support Action Combat don't support any of the things Intrepid has previously said that they've planned. This leaves the Devs in a difficult ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 12:42:40
I was a Cleric in yesterday's siege test. I'm not saying that it would not work, the way you've described it, but I will say that it would not have made things any easier for me, personally. There are multiple reasons why I wouldn't have felt better doing it that way, and some issues that might come up if I needed to target myself. There were also situations where my teammates were pulled into a group of allies so that there was a wall of allied units between them and me, which was actually my biggest problem. With the ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 14:14:02
For other posters who are not familiar. https://youtu.be/x9PqSAFgYFk I hate to dismiss the opinions of others outright, so I link it. I have no commentary, if watching the video results in the perception that more skill is used, and that nothing I said is relevant, then all is well. Here's the reference to the things I was asking about, as well (these aren't the combo I was referring to, mine is different due to having different goals - I don't like to place the orb so low - and I haven't put in enough hours of practice for the ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 17:22:47
The part of this that concerns me the most is that we're already in an MMORPG that has no intention of balancing by class. Intrepid uses the term 'rock-paper-scissors' because it's familiar and easy to understand, but MMO veterans may recognize it better when I mention it as M/C/A (or whatever order you like). Attrition, Mitigation, Cooldowns. Attrition (Cleric, any class with magical DoT or bleed and survivability) beats Mitigation (tanks and evasion tanks), Mitigation beats Cooldowns (Rogues, Rangers, basically burst DPS), and Cooldowns beat Attrition. (Sure this is an oversimplification, just know that your gear and Augments are ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 18:15:48
How is Selo even remotely incorrect. They didn't say anything about mashing mindlessly. If you can react faster, and press your buttons faster, in that style of play, you win. If you don't, you shouldn't really be calling it Action Combat, it's just standard combat with extra steps to make you feel like you're better at it.
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 20:53:31
Well, I agree completely, even as someone who plays very 'hardcore' otherwise. I'd have 'given up' trying to bridge the 'divide' by now, but I've had multiple productive conversations with at least some of the Action Combat supporters and we might have a less 'hardcore' compromise for now. So I'll keep talking. Hopefully every person who has anything to add 'nearer to the middle ground' will say something, but so far, this thread hasn't taught me much other than the fact that people are still argumentative. Oh well.
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-12 21:04:49
Hi. In the MMOs where these have been somewhat tested, they have either failed or led to a change in player behaviour that some people consider undesirable. Not entirely though. The 'players make everything' market doesn't work very well, but 'NPCs selling things for more than a player would ever need, to make it', does. This leads to Auction House or Player Stall activity, niches for production, and relationships. It can be important to provide the items at some NPC at a high cost, though, for many reasons. Upgrade and Creation being done while you are not playing the ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-13 08:39:55
I let myself fall into the style of communication I shouldn't use, and so I clarify. In Elite Dangerous, my ship has one laser that has 'gimballed' system, I can fire it by holding down a button and if my opponent is anywhere in a cone in front of it, they are hit. It also has a Plasma Accelerator where I must not only take the shot at a specific moment, I must read their movement, and lead this shot, and calculate the velocities of both ships in space. In a small ship dogfight, I spend a large amount ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-15 14:40:14
There are no obvious current tools for Roleplay beyond the same standard things that Vhaeyne has talked about. It would be more accurate to say that Ashes, as it is, is fully baked into being an RP tool. It's difficult to explain this fully without the visual NDA lifted. The environments and spaces in the game, along with the intended methods for the economy (defeating monsters who drop things that you use, rather than just easy money) and the way that the quests and NPCs are set up, all drive a situation where your immersion can remain unbroken for ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-15 15:00:58
Fantasy games use different names, but in warfare, generally, combatants are simply named by whatever they do, or what weapon they carry. We've got Bowmen, Swordsmen, Spearmen, even Riflemen, and Cannoneers. Mage is literally 'one using magic'. So in the sense that the 'term', realistic, shoehorned or otherwise, for 'taking attention and mitigating damage' has become 'tanking', then it is fine to call them 'tanks'. We can't call them Shieldmen, because they don't all use shields, but historical precedent indicates that this was done too (Hoplites). And Ashes doesn't force you to wear heavy armor... If it did, there would ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-16 02:41:19
Using Javelin as the example, right now, if you use tab to target your opponent, they only need to be 'somewhere in a 90 degree cone in front of your character' and the ability works, and any accuracy for it is based on stats. If you were in Action Mode, you have to line up the reticle to hit the target with the Javelin. If you miss, it's presumably just wasted entirely. The devs have therefore already implied that there may be either bonuses to skills when they are tuned to be used in ACM, or certain skills are ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-16 14:33:28
Yeah I'm realizing from reading the posters that this thread probably wasn't necessary. I was basically concerned because I imagined that more people had supported the game based on a specific list of promised features. So if Intrepid told you 'we've decided not to include Summoner any more based on feedback' you might feel 'hey you can't do that at this stage'. That's why I consider the wiki's content important. People who are backing the project are making that decision based on what they've been told, and those who backed early I figure would, by the nature of doing ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-16 19:30:05
While I understand that approach too, one thing stood out to me, and maybe I misunderstood it. Things were usually phrased in a way that made me think not 'We know what we are aiming for, so we're going to iterate'. Moreso 'we don't quite know, we'll just try lots of different things and see what people think is fun'. What people think is fun for combat tends to ripple through other systems. Either way, same outcome. Those who don't think there's any reason to say anything until there's more to see, won't, and since I am just theorycrafting ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-17 03:08:19
No worries, it didn't come across that way at all. My goal is slightly different so I totally get it. The other Combat Discussion thread, for example, many of the original posters that the framework came from never actually came back to it, and there are other people who only visit occasionally, and I wouldn't want that 'missed out'. I guess they'd show up much more when the Visual NDA lifts, but since the full Alpha-1 was pushed back, it just ended up getting squirrely and possibly they might miss it. Anyway... The idea of 'the highest rank of ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-17 15:01:05
Well I'll see if I can 'weave' the lighter topic between the heavier one. My intention with engaging @Cold 0ne FTB was 'how to get similar effects if the devs don't want animation cancels'. So it brings us to 'how do I get player agency of the same type as @arsnn described without actually being able to cancel animations?' Taking the example from my team, who were defenders in Siege. We're extremely used to this sort of teamwork and generally 'analyze what games will let us do', really fast. This allowed us to mostly execute a pretty obvious First ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-17 15:30:35
I've got some minor concerns in both directions due to the way the PvE vs PvP balance ends up if you make it so people do this. I'd moreso expect it to be something like: Rank 1 Tab Target Javelin with no real CC Rank 2 Action Combat Javelin with some CC Rank 3 back to Tab Target Javelin with some weaker but similar CC. If it went the other way, with the Action Combat version coming in at Rank 3, even if you made it so that the Evasion stat was factored much less, this still seems like ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-17 17:37:24
At the moment, the game intends to give you freedom so that your race is not the defining factor of this, but your chosen type of node and location are. My group has a very clear idea of where they want to live on the map, what sorts of things they want to do, and therefore what node they are likely to engage in. We expect to trade with other nodes and for those things to be related to the goals of both nodes. This may lead to war if there is too much difference, or diplomacy fails, or ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-17 20:33:58
I'll throw in my feelings on this as the Devil's Advocate. Expect me to argue against everything, not because I genuinely dislike these ideas, but because I may have a unique perspective that allows me to help others refine some aspects of this, maybe even into something that might be easier to implement. Basic Philosophical Error of Kant It's pointed out in the video already, that understanding, and math, allows us to surpass a lot of the related feelings of this. The video then goes into a discussion that humans cannot understand certain things because they are too large, ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-18 14:38:28
Single big impactful things are examples of Spectacle rather than Sublime . Games should have them. They're good. They're also expensive, usually single shot, and when they're not, it's too easy to see 'the reused function'. Sublime is achieved by creating something uncontrollable, obfuscated enough to appear random, and for some, at least at the beginning, Kant's correct concept, 'distance'. Rather than the volcano erupting being the important part, 'the Elder Dragon of Fire appearing to fly out of it and go land on top of difficult-to-access terrain, nearby, looking down at us'. Make this happen under some set ...
Post by Azherae on 2021-06-18 15:38:49
This is direct feedback request for the team for those of us who need to use the ingame chat to communicate even in combat, for whatever reason, and don't plan to, or can't conveniently use, discord or VOIP (children to wake, etc). My suggestions and requests for how the chat function is implemented are specific: 1. Make / open the chat window the same way Enter does. I don't think this is being used for anything else? Players who use multi-button mouse could even map a button to this just so they never have to take their hands off ...