Crowd control should not be based on RNG

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Thanks for the response. My point was mostly that:
1. Action combat stun has about the same amount of utility as RNG stun because of the inherent design flaw in stun.
2. They both are about the same odds to hit on average in the end and you could in fact have rng on the skill shot and itd still be a part of the meta due to the nature of hard cc and class design.

No I am not particularly worried about skillshots having a skill gap. I personally don't care (especially if you let my summons do a weaker version in tab target if we are passing hard cc around.)

My point was that I agreed with your perspective in a world where hard cc 'must' exist and Intrepid should probably follow your advice because its the least dumb option, but it's not going to have a huge difference in the games design, just your fun (which is important.)

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Dreoh went: 'fighting games perfected pvp and dobt have rng'
You went: 'name a game with combat that doesn't rng like that'
Dreoh: 'points to GW2'
Me: 'Points to Absolver'

The point is in Absolver 'your build matters'. You said 'they want static characters with known abilities' you don't know peoples builds ahead of time in Absolver. If you meant regarding the player themselves, yeah most mmos do try to get their build to a static knowable set of abilities and style.

Also you sucking at the game didn't mean there is rng in the combat. I have also been playing since 2017 and can say with confidence as a fighting game player, you are just wrong. It is unpopular because its hard and fighting games are niche. Not because the design is bad.

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Forgive me for stopping my read here if you address this point further down simply let me know and I will read the rest.

RNG: Random Number Generator. The game decides for you whether your answer is correct.

This is a seperate concept from.
Random Chance: There was a chance of something working but it didn't for various reasons. The machine isn't required to be involved here.

Games that lean into action combat use Random chance via class design and situational spacing relative to those tools. Rock Paper Scissors.

I can agree with you that something needs to happen to prevent stale rotations however you are setting up a false premise from the very beginning of this post. It's an option between two design sets. RNG mechanics are not the one and only way.

Now I personally think Steven just wants people to be happy and have fun. I think he didn't actually have an opinion one way or the other and your proposed 'rng only' focused design wouldn't go against his intent. But neither would RPS. If he didn't want the RPS crowd to play hybrid combat wouldn't have even come up after all as action combat tilts towards that direction.

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Maybe dont bring up this question if you don't want it brought in to the conversion yourself mate. Who is having trouble following the conversation? That's the only reason it came up.

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Man your being as definitionalist as Dygz now. And therefore there is no value in continuing to try and talk with you on this specific subject other than to tell the audience to read Azherae's post above if they feel at all confused about Absolver by this weird off topic squabble.

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Yeah my bad mate. Sorry about that.

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You never brought up your definition of fighting game before this point. It fits my definition and can be played via your rule set.

It's called marketing mate. Calling it a 'fighting game mmo' would have had a number of pr issues.

Now by 'standard internet protocol' I am just going to quote my own post more relevant to the conversation.

JustVine wrote: »

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Forgive me for stopping my read here if you address this point further down simply let me know and I will read the rest.

RNG: Random Number Generator. The game decides for you whether your answer is correct.

This is a seperate concept from.
Random Chance: There was a chance of something working but it didn't for various reasons. The machine isn't required to be involved here.

Games that lean into action combat use Random chance via class design and situational spacing relative to those tools. Rock Paper Scissors.

I can agree with you that something needs to happen to prevent stale rotations however you are setting up a false premise from the very beginning of this post. It's an option between two design sets. RNG mechanics are not the one and only way.

Now I personally think Steven just wants people to be happy and have fun. I think he didn't actually have an opinion one way or the other and your proposed 'rng only' focused design wouldn't go against his intent. But neither would RPS. If he didn't want the RPS crowd to play hybrid combat wouldn't have even come up after all as action combat tilts towards that direction.

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It got brought up because Dreoh pointed out that pvp as a concept was perfected by fighting games. If you want a game with serious combat there are lessons to be learned from the genre. Fighting games like GGXrd, Soul Calibur, Injustice all have systems for 'more casual play.'

People who dislike 'hard core balanced combat' tent to be closer to the audience of those who play the gear systems in those fighting games. Those who play tournament level obviously want skill to matter mostand therefore shun systems like that.

An mmo with a gear system and high skill ceiling balanced combat require you pay attention to fighting game lessons more. Lower ones less so.

People who want skill shots are closer to this crowd even if they aren't quite fighting game players. There is overlap in player communities hence why games invest in those casual gear systems to begin with.

RPS vs RNG. I think both can exist in tandem but it'd be unwise not to listen to lessons learned in fighting game design if you want a high skill combat system with nuance and.skill mattering.

You are controlling definitions of a bunch of things here creating a series of false positives in this discussion.

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Quite frankly.... You don't get to decide the definition of fighting games 'yourself' guv. For Honor won a peoples choice award for best fighting game of the year. Absolver was nominated for two fighting game awards one of them in the same year as For Honor's victory.

And even if I humor your false positives.

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Absolver has a mode where you can do exactly that. Are you one of those people who consider Smash Bros to not be a fighting game?

The point of mentioning any of this, is RPS is sufficient, RNG is not required.

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You have repeatably ignored examples via your personal definitions. If the game is going to have action combat, it makes sense to take lessons from action games. Just because your definition of what an mmorpg 'must' include RNG doesn't mean 'it's the only definition that works.' Your failure of imagination is no reason to dismiss those who can. It's how masterpieces get made.

It's fine if Ashes wants to be more casual.

It's fine if Ashes wants to be Tab Target with the associated RNG stats.

If Ashes went 'hardcore skill heavy competitive' for PvP, it would be likely be less popular.

But the main thing those Action games don't have, is the persistent world and other things to do.

If you took For Honor or Absolver and added Artisan Skills, Freeholds, Nodes, Taverns, Raid PvE (oh wait they already sorta have this one), then more people would play them because those people would have other things to do and could move to something else every time they are frustrated by the combat.

Why do we know this? BDO and GW2. BDO is somehow popular despite having only just added sorta-raid PvE. A massive amount of BDO players never even fight. As in literally 'don't level up even to the level where PvP turns on, and can faceroll the story by making a lot of money, buying overpowered gear off the Market, and bursting down enemies from horseback in a style where the horse does all the attacking.

GW2 has been clearly explained by Dreoh multiple times.

As for the point that fighting games have RNG characters, those are almost always 'crit designed'. The ability never fails. It has a baseline effectiveness and sometimes does more than you were relying on it for. Even Faust's craziness is 'I will use this ability that will almost certainly help me in this position where I am safe to do so'. You choose to use it, sometimes it 'crits'. Also, you can't argue 'well some fighting games have some characters that have RNG' as if this means 'all fighting games have RNG, it's just part of gaming'. Designers choose whether or not to make it part of gaming.

This thread is about 'the success of CC being based on RNG'.

It's not necessary (or even friendly, to casual players) to make abilities RNG in a game that adds 'Action Combat' and has specifically already implied that Hard CC will be skillshots.

Intrepid has a relatively clearly provided design vision involving Action Combat, Skillshots, and specific rewards for those skillshots. If you want them to take out the Action Combat, fine. People who are supportive of it will keep trying to suggest ways to make sure it is good, and Definitionalists will argue 'if you made it that way then it wouldn't be an RPG'.

I personally don't care if Ashes 'is an RPG' or not. If removing RNG based CC makes a game 'not an RPG', then so be it. If removing RNG makes a game 'not an RPG' I'll let the makers of the Legend of Zelda know, and we can move on to 'whatever people want to call Ashes based on that'.

MMO Open World Action Combat Simulator? I'll take it. Whatever.

Rip out the Hybrid Combat and go back to Tab Target with RNG? I'll take that too.

Labels are a convenient thing humans use to gather people into their tribes during disagreements and minimize critical thinking. An obvious tactic to use when you already have authority/power over something... or think you do.

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And lots of people signed up for Ashes because it offered Hybrid Combat and got their attention using an Action Combat Battle Royale style game. What's your point?