I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

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Now I'm nowhere near proper Souls nerds and have never played MH, but even from the 50h of Elden Ring that I played - that shit is so fucking tab target that I don't even know what to say. You can literally target an enemy and strafe around it. If that's not tab, I don't know what is. Yes, you can hit air when you want to, but that's probably the actioniest part of that combat, which isn't saying much.

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I will leave it to Noaani to clarify whether or not your comment is relevant given the clarification. I saw you ask 'why don't popular games use Tab Target', and clarified that they have something that I perceived to be equivalent to what Noaani has tried to explain is 'Tab Target'.

But it is true that all gauging of relevance is up to the target of your point so I apologize for speaking on behalf of Noaani in this case and will disengage.

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But I feel like that's Noaani's point. Tab games can have much deeper skill design w/o sacrificing on the speed/difficulty of the encounter, while in order for an action game to be playable with a big amount of skills you gotta slow it down in multiple ways, which kinda defeats the whole purpose of "action games are more skill-based because they require you to react to shit faster".

It's just 2 different skillsets. You either use your knowledge of the game's systems and mechanics to properly adapt to the situation or you use your physical ability to react super fast and press correct buttons even faster. The former can appeal to all ages and has a really low skill floor, while the latter appeals mainly to the younger audience (due to their physical abilities being at their peak) and has a much higher floor. And you can always speed up tab if you want to, but I'm not sure how many action combat likers would be ok with a slow ass combat in their game.

NiKr wrote: »

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At which point then would you have too many things to physically do in the game? From what I remember of BDO, it's a combo system where you gotta press keys in a proper order or in a proper combination at the same time. And iirc a lot of abilities take directionality into account, so you're using up your movement presses to use a skill (correct me if I'm wrong here).

So how exactly would you have a deeper variety of skills, on top of dodgy fast movement, w/o overwhelming the player with a piano-like gameplay. Hell, I played a piano build in L2 and even that was right at the edge of what I'd consider a breaking point of "too much shit to do". I can't even imagine having 20 abilities on top of constant fast-paced movement and proper targeting.

Bear in mind that it is entirely possible that the person you are talking to considers the 'Piano-like gameplay' to be the entire point. To be the 'skill'.

I consider this to be a gradient, there is no 'Tab or Action' once you get to where Intrepid has. Just a scale of how much physical twitch skill you need to have, and how unpredictable your enemies are.

If a person thinks that 'you should have to have high twitch skill' and ALSO for whatever reason believes 'CPU enemies are always predictable', their assumptions will be skewed.

Intrepid has not defined an 'intended APM' for the game, at this time, but when I say it is 'faster than BDO', I say this as a person who plays the 'fastest' (or maybe second fastest now? depends on your perception of how to play Sorceress) class in that game.

I expect to have to do even more in Ashes JUST based on what I saw from those daggers, and I expect that to be 'as a healer', as long as I am also stabbing and slashing things. APM in a World Boss fight on my Kuno is only 130-ish at the high-activity times and drops to 40-70 when the boss is not as active.

What is it like for the 'Piano Build' of L2?

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This is also untrue, should I bring neurological studies or do you have your own?

We can compare papers!

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Ok well before I go dredging those up, let me verify that we have the same definition of a specific thing, since sometimes yours don't match mine.

1. "Pointing at a stationary Object and pressing a button." - Visual Cortex heavy, the decision making is premeditative, you know what you intend to do before you press the button. Can we agree that in any situation where you might need to change your Tab Target, this is the same as Tab Target ?

2. "Tracking the location of a moving object and pressing a button." - Still visual cortex heavy, decision making still premeditative. This is the one I presume you are talking about, where the Visual Cortex is doing work separate from the rest of the decision making.

3. "Tracking the spacing or location of a moving object and using the information to determine which button to press." - No longer primarily Visual Cortex, intermingled decision making results in other activations with either a mind that 'overshoots' and allows the VC to take priority and potentially take the wrong action, or 'hesitates' and may override VC decision making even when it would have been correct.

When you say 'Aiming is using a different part of the mind, are we discussing #2 and only #2?

EDIT: Nvm, I thought you were serious, but your 'simple Google search' tells me that I should expect to be 'proven wrong' by the vast depths of your understanding of neurology. I'm out, continue to believe whatever.

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Thank you for clarifying, we are not talking about the same thing.

You are talking about an FPS, where the thing being calculated is the trajectory of bullets of approximately uniform speed (relative to the use at range, i.e. you wouldn't use a mortar-shell style shot at the same range as your rifle). Some classes in games work like this, so sure.

I am talking about an Action MMO, MOBA, etc, situation, where the ability options you have would require you to make decisions about not just where to aim, but where to be. In the case of a high-mobility Tab Target game with any range limitations on abilities, those decisions are still required.

If you are deciding spacing and trying to aim at the same time, your VC no longer has primary control of your aiming and it must be done 'manually' by the same part of your mind that is doing the rest of the tracking of input data.

I don't think you believe that Tab Target games are literally just 'I can stand anywhere I want and hit my ability and it will reach my target'. If you believe this, the original target of your conversation will probably be the one to address it, and I do not wish to waste your time further, a definition is sufficient.

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I will leave clarification of Noaani's argument to Noaani, I will note that my response was based on an overassumption due to having played the same types of games. You've played BDO I believe, so I offer this:

"The part of my mind that is deciding what ability to use based on spacing is not the same as the part that is actually aiming the ability (but is connected to the part that is attempting to change spacing so that the aim is valid."

"The part of my mind that is deciding what ability to use based on spacing is also the part that is making the decisions about other factors in the fight."

It seems to me that your point is that you would like Noaani to use a term other than 'aiming' when making this 'argument', and I can agree that the concept of 'aiming' (and only aiming) being an additional strain on most players is not likely to be correct.

Azherae wrote: »

What is it like for the 'Piano Build' of L2?

I tried to look for a good video, but every other video has them clicking skills with their mouse and being overall shit at targeting and stuff. Really wish I made some videos back when I was still playing.

Here's a vid that at least shows the speed of casting and roughly 85% of the skills on the bar that I used. This is a more magey build of this class, while I went for phys+mage which added a few more skills to the cycle. And on the rewatch of this vid, I think the part where the dude manually clicks skills it's just someone else playing, because the layout is completely different, so that other player might not be used to the skill bar yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIxubnfGF-s

On top of all the skill usage I'd be constantly spamming space to eat some health bottles, so that would bump the apm, but not really meaningfully.