Animation canceling, Dodging, weaving

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I promise you that in no way am I trying to diminish or belittle either your style of play or your skill.

I am only making the point that you have certain biases and perceptions based on that style of play.

You started with 'everyone uses forward pressure it's how you win', which isn't true, you're just biased to not think about the situations in which someone doesn't need to do it.

You probably don't need to explain this to me, I am a fighting game analyst, and I've already watched your matches. Again I AM NOT DRAWING ANY NEGATIVE CONCLUSIONS ABOUT YOU OR YOUR SKILLS FROM MY ANALYSIS OF THOSE MATCHES .

I am simply using the information I have about you as a person to refactor the way I respond to you. But I will tell you one thing. You are just as much 'in my domain' now as I am in yours. Be careful which 'random moves you throw out' from now on, because I now have much, MUCH more data.

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Ah yes, classic. I will assume it is all the ones you lose.

Azherae wrote: »

Ah yes, classic. I will assume it is all the ones you lose.

In case you missed my previous post, did you play/know Tekken characters and does playing Bryan Fury fit the Leap Siegfried playstyle?

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Ah yes, classic. I will assume it is all the ones you lose.

In case you missed my previous post, did you play/know Tekken characters and does playing Bryan Fury fit the Leap Siegfried playstyle?

No, not at all.

I suppose since this thread doesn't have a 'point', it can't really be derailed by us going into long discussions of fighting games, and as you know, I do enjoy discussing the fighting games.

I don't personally see you as a Bryan Fury, I would expect that's moreso because you don't know how to play fighting games. You probably play Jin now, or maybe Lee Chaolan, but again, doing the extrapolation the other way is much harder, because people don't always show you their personality properly on forums for a while.

Or rather, you could assign their 'shown personality' to an obvious character choice, but it would be ineffective if they are not showing their true self. Most 'aggressive' forum-posters DO show their true self quite quickly, but you don't.

You weren't really around to notice it, but I've given the information about who I play in posts because it's like a weird 'invisible subculture' that you can't see, between Fighting Game players. So if I tell someone like one of the posters from before 'I play X', it also 'downloads a ton of my data into their brain' instantly, and vice versa. So it can be used as a shortcut for understanding people, but it relies on them being good at the games.

Mag is definitely good enough at fighting games that 'I play Siegfried and Talim' would have given me all the data. As it is, I have to get it by watching matches between posts.

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It's easy to find compilation clips of top players online, you should expect that you are in some of them.

I have systems for searching that.

Azherae wrote: »

I don't personally see you as a Bryan Fury, I would expect that's moreso because you don't know how to play fighting games. You probably play Jin now, or maybe Lee Chaolan, but again, doing the extrapolation the other way is much harder, because people don't always show you their personality properly on forums for a while.

There's also a chance that my attitude has changed since those days (it's been ~15 years since I've last played a fighting game and the only one I played was Tekken 3). But I also definitely didn't play it in any "pro" way back then so yeah, I doubt my preferred character back then could say much about me as a person.

The only character I remember liking in SC (don't even remember which one) was the double tri-sword dude. Though I played that SC waaaay less than Tekken so there's that too

JustVine wrote: »

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Oh, so English actually is your second language then? (all the top players in Soul Calibur historically are Japanese or Korean afaik).

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This is accurate but just like MMOs differ, fighting games differ, so it depends on which game you play, on average it is entirely correct though.

Right, I got pulled away from this, sorry.

So now we have multiple datapoints to help us actually advance discussion. Please note that Mag may not agree with the things I say or infer/imply, and that's entirely reasonable, anyone who cares can just decide who they believe in based on whatever, I won't try to convince based on specifics about Mag's play (but I will definitely infer and start trouble that way I think).

Those who need additional visual proof data and explanation to make their decision can PM me, I am absolutely not willing to 'use the data I have to browbeat' here, when talking to non fighting gamers, because you're just not in a position to make critical assessments of my claims and would never be sure when I was exaggerating, biased, or lying.

But we do know this. Mag's character and playstyle lead to the feeling that continued motion, the ability to quickly move into the next motion, and being able to convert risk into damage when the opponent responds incorrectly, are primary skills.

These are things that are rooted in Siegfried/Talim mindset. They are correct entirely for those characters. They do not necessarily apply to Fighting Games as a whole nor to MMOs, but it gives us an insight into the feeling toward Tab Target gaming.

Siegfried doesn't need to 'aim' as much. Talim does. Both these characters go THROUGH other people's attacks, not 'bait and punish', not 'defend and punish', not 'intimidate and advance while misleading'. They go THROUGH (in Talim's case you could argue 'around', usually over or under).

So the result is that TO Mag, Tab Target games feel ridiculous. That makes sense, right? If you have a character that relies on 'moving through your attack because you chose an attack that they know how to outmaneuver' and another that, if given the option to 'cancel a long startup in order to mislead the enemy, would greatly benefit from this rather than having to take the full risk of that attack', you'd definitely think that any 'My attack just hits anyway' feeling would be bullshit to that player.

Fighting Games are about many things. They are one of the most advanced and complex game types out there. I don't say this because I 'think other games are low skill'. It's rather the opposite. I play Fighting Games because they were the only game type that actually leads to the experience I want, for a very long time. You can see that reflected in Mag's perception too. PvE in Fighting Games is not hard, it just 'has patterns', and 'cheats'.

As the person who likes both, I can tell you that I play MMOs with PvE that gets close to fighting game difficulty. They exist. They are rare. Mag has not played them, and would not expect them to be real.

Everything is explained.

Tab Target games are more like Fighting Games in TOTALITY than BDO is. But not 'Fighting Games as Mag plays them'.

As another piece of data, my reasoning behind choosing Bryan as my main back then was mainly about countering what my friends played. One played super cheese Jin (his electro punch and just basic annoying sweeping kick), another friend played Paul and the third played Hwoarang (the best player among us). From all the character in Tekken 3 Bryan had the biggest punches (or at least it seemed that way to me at the time) and he had good range on his attacks (mainly kicks). So I chose him, learned several of his moves (we mainly just button mashed back then so knowing proper moves gave you a ton of advantage) and just dominated my friends by timing my attacks correctly.

Was beating the cheese friend 100% of the time, Paul ~70-80% if I positioned myself correctly and Hwoarang ~55%, mainly due to our range being similar and because the player was strong with that character.

And I used a similar approach to my L2 gameplay. I picked classes that could keep distance, had a few "holding the enemy back" abilities and had good finishers that I could use at proper times. There were other classes that excelled at any one of those things, but I mainly went for those that could do all of them to a good degree. Maybe Tekken 3 had a better-suited character for me, but I wasn't serious enough about that game and Bryan did the job well enough for me to not want to switch to another character.

Right now I'm planning to main Tank/Warrior in Ashes because it feels like it might have a similar gameplay style to what I described. If some other class has better augments for the Tank, I'll probably go with that one.

NiKr wrote: »

As another piece of data, my reasoning behind choosing Bryan as my main back then was mainly about countering what my friends played. One played super cheese Jin (his electro punch and just basic annoying sweeping kick), another friend played Paul and the third played Hwoarang (the best player among us). From all the character in Tekken 3 Bryan had the biggest punches (or at least it seemed that way to me at the time) and he had good range on his attacks (mainly kicks). So I chose him, learned several of his moves (we mainly just button mashed back then so knowing proper moves gave you a ton of advantage) and just dominated my friends by timing my attacks correctly.

Was beating the cheese friend 100% of the time, Paul ~70-80% if I positioned myself correctly and Hwoarang ~55%, mainly due to our range being similar and because the player was strong with that character.

And I used a similar approach to my L2 gameplay. I picked classes that could keep distance, had a few "holding the enemy back" abilities and had good finishers that I could use at proper times. There were other classes that excelled at any one of those things, but I mainly went for those that could do all of them to a good degree. Maybe Tekken 3 had a better-suited character for me, but I wasn't serious enough about that game and Bryan did the job well enough for me to not want to switch to another character.

Right now I'm planning to main Tank/Warrior in Ashes because it feels like it might have a similar gameplay style to what I described. If some other class has better augments for the Tank, I'll probably go with that one.

Ooh data.

I'm going to go into my 'Analyst Leader' mode. Feel free to ignore me.

Switch Archetypes around as your 'current plan'.

Chances are that you aren't going to want Tank in Ashes with that response to FOO Jin and your other preferences. You're more likely to want Fighter with Tank or Summoner secondary (all this is of course based on my assumptions about what they will do for Archetypes entirely).

Azherae wrote: »

Chances are that you aren't going to want Tank in Ashes with that response to FOO Jin and your other preferences. You're more likely to want Fighter with Tank or Summoner secondary (all this is of course based on my assumptions about what they will do for Archetypes entirely).

Playing Tank fits my plans for the RP part of my gameplay so at least right now I wanna concentrate on that, but yeah, I'd be fine going with smth else if that fits my preferences better but I'll only know that once we have all the classes in testing.

Back in L2 I played all classes quite extensively, but still had a "main" if I had freedom of choice when starting out on a new server. I'm very excited to play every class in the game and see what feels best to me. Can't wait for Alpha2

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Chances are that you aren't going to want Tank in Ashes with that response to FOO Jin and your other preferences. You're more likely to want Fighter with Tank or Summoner secondary (all this is of course based on my assumptions about what they will do for Archetypes entirely).

Playing Tank fits my plans for the RP part of my gameplay so at least right now I wanna concentrate on that, but yeah, I'd be fine going with smth else if that fits my preferences better but I'll only know that once we have all the classes in testing.

Back in L2 I played all classes quite extensively, but still had a "main" if I had freedom of choice when starting out on a new server. I'm very excited to play every class in the game and see what feels best to me. Can't wait for Alpha2

I have a different expectation of "Fighter" in Ashes based on what we've seen so far and a lot of other inferences about what happens, but never am I to get between someone and their RP, so have at it. I'll obviously have stronger opinions during Alpha-2, and I'll add your data to the tests (this is very helpful for me because if you have the instincts suggested by this discussion, I will need to factor for it during the Combat Tests if you are acting as the Team B Tank).

Azherae wrote: »

I have a different expectation of "Fighter" in Ashes based on what we've seen so far and a lot of other inferences about what happens

The quote from Steven here leads me to believe that Fighter's augments might give some sort of mobility and big phys dmg to your abilities. In my head, high mobility means either initiation (and quote seems to talk about this application exactly) or timely retreat. Initiating a fight usually means that you gonna get some hits on you so you wanna be a bit on the chunkier side, so to me it seems logical to have those augments on an archetype that can take some beating (which logically should be the tank). And the phys dmg part would help you finish out anyone who might've dodged/escaped the initiation, while Tank's concentration on CCs would reinforce both the initiation part and catching any stragglers afterwards.

Obviously, as you've pointed out, the "best" way of executing that kind of gameplay would be to pick the Fighter as your main, but as I've said, I like to have a more balanced "jack of all trades" kinda class rather than one that excels at any particular kind of playstyle.

What's your read on what Fighter can present in a fight? And we could even semi-relate this to the OG topic of the thread and imagine that the fighter's mobility augments could empower the directional dodging/weaving of any given class, which to me seems to boost Tank's role of "agro the enemy and try to mitigate their damage in any way to make your healer's life that much easier".

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As usual, your points are correct, if you are comparing BDO combat to the 'standard' of Tab Target Combat that you currently understand.

You are absolutely winning against the Tab Strawman here in your arguments. No contest. That strawman is getting pwned every which way.

Everything you have said is entirely consistent for 'the way a Siegfried views things having played primarily weaker Tab Target games'.

Your usual argument is with Noaani about EQ2 mechanics. I am not here to repeat the claim that you don't understand EQ2 mechanics. Only to agree that if you do not count games you have not extensively played, everything you say is quite right.

Can we discuss NWO instead? Do you think that BDO is more like a Fighting Game than NWO is? No longer at all talking about Tab vs Action. Just Action vs Action/Hybrid.

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You realize I can just sidestep/parry the leap, right? This is how you keep losing to Sophitia.

Anyways, a proper explanation in case anyone cares:

BDO is mostly comprised of 'moving in ways your opponent can misread, or armoring through their stuff'. One or two classes don't work this way, but for now, this is the majority (they've been trying to move toward more rooted classes recently, but not necessarily too heavily).

There's a strong correlation between 'canceling movement' and how effective one is at doing this, but this is NOT a feature of 90% of fighting games. In fighting games, once you have done a move, 90% of the time you have two options. If it made contact, you generally have a ruleset that determines 'can you cancel the recovery of this move into another one', and a limited amount of time to do so. If your opponent was blocking, they usually continue to block, in this situation, unless they explicitly try to do something else. This is a 'blockstring'. You don't even have to keep holding the block in many games, though if the next attack 'must be blocked differently', you have to do that correctly.

This correlates quite well to Tab Target play. You 'must finish ability A before ability B' except when the game explicitly allows you to 'Empower' Ability A in some way, and this normally costs you some resource to do. Fighting Games also require some resource to do this most of the time, if you don't use the resource, the options you have after the first thing are limited.

Your opponent therefore knows that if they were moving, at the point where you started Ability A, and your aim was off, they can use their position to counter you based on the way Ability A moves you. Sometimes they are not in position to do this. Your goal would be to 'make sure your opponent was not in a position (physically) to do the punish/counter.

In a Tab Target game, it's not always a physical position, it's an 'ability available' or 'player mindset' position. Since the game is occuring on a 3D plane unconstrained, it is easier to do it by 'can I do this ability or not'. The equivalent of 'Frame Data'. BDO does have this too, but due to the game's nature, must rely more on the Physical Position.

The thing separating the two is 'what exactly is the player skill requirement for being in the right position'. Action games require a physical adjustment, Tab Games require either preparation, or a Timing Adjustment, (once again, the equivalent of Frame Data).

BDO specifically uses its animation canceling to negate the Timing Adjustment anywhere from 40-60% of the time, and replaces it with a Positioning Adjustment. This leads to less interactions between players actually using abilities, unless of course they are repositioning abilities. Once an Attack ability is successfully used, the rest is about correctly timing your strikes.

But BDO contains RNG Evasion, whereas fighting games don't. Tab Target games I have played contain RNG Evasion as well, but they also have less attacks that the RNG Evasion actually applies to in totality (some attacks are guaranteed to do at least some damage if you are correctly positioned, basically). Therefore just by a little bit, these Tab Target games are closer to Fighting Games, because while positioning in Fighting Games is important, much of the actual interaction occurs at ranges where both players can strike, or where one is already striking, and the other is choosing which ability to use to respond to that strike, or if to keep defending.

Situations where you can 'meterless cancel' are rare, and situations where you can cancel the startup of move A rather than the recovery are rare in many games, so it is not as easy to 'mislead' the opponent by 'starting a move and then canceling it'.

If Ashes wants to add a Mana/Meter cost to Animation Canceling, I am so down. Red Verran Cancel and Yellow Verran Cancel when?

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Actually I'm just maneuvering you to the position I want. You began by claiming that you understand the situation better and were top 10 in Soul Calibur, you used a screenshot to prove this, you opened yourself up to me finding data, and you forgot or didn't understand how the scene works, how quickly I can get that a date parallel for your own screenshot, and used a shot that gave me your rank value.

I'm just playing footsies at this point. You can't tell yet, but you're 'losing', if that was even relevant. If you figure out my 'gameplan' quickly enough you can still 'counter' it.

And yeah, I'm that petty, so you can call me out for that as much as you like, I'll take it as a compliment.

I just want you to stop misleading people, and this is the sort of thing I do anyway.

Try this, here's my initial counter.

If you were top at SC6 in a way that matters, and there are dozens of compilations of top players in SC6 from 1-2 months after the game's release (which is technically its peak since it wasn't a well received game overall), why wouldn't you be in them? Why would it be DIFFICULT to find footage of a top 10 player's matches online?

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Were you seriously not aware that people can see your rank matches in SC6?

Like, a person using the game client can find a replay with your name on it, and watch the replay.

So it is possible for a player to make compilations of top players by... doing this, and then posting those videos. Or, perhaps, they might keep their compilations instead of posting them and be available to, say, share those videos with an analyst they know on request...

I'm sorry that you didn't know this, because it implies that you might have had footage of your matches out there in the wild available for others to see that you either didn't know existed or would prefer that others didn't have access to.

Do bear it in mind for certain modern fighters, once you play, anyone in the world can watch your matches for a while, and there may be information about your play floating around out there for others to do research on.

There is no Argument Canceling on Ashes Of Creation Forums.