To the Action Combat Fans

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I gotta say I totally enjoyed that vid. That looked kinda fun.

Yeah, it'd definitely be a nice memory and reactions practice. Though, from what I've heard of LA's gearing system, you'd have to suffer through the game to enjoy this endgame raid. But I guess you're somewhat used to suffering through games, considering your experience with BDO

It's been REALLY hard lately on the BDO front, let me tell ya... But I must persevere for the sake of knowledge!

Anyways back to the Raid. I hope (but don't expect) that the streamer was being at least somewhat hyperbolic about how much lower WoW Raids are in comparison. I've only mostly watched 'WoW raids where the Add-ons do all the work' and 'joke ones', which both seemed at least somewhat decent, if still scripted.

Nothing wrong with a good scripted encounter like this, and it does have some randomization, but it's also a lot more 'do it until you figure out what's going on mechanically and then repeat', yes. It's just a 'style thing'.

I'd say 'if you put this into EQ or FFXI' the equivalent fight would not be very different except that you'd have to build up coordinated methods for big damage opportunities, and most likely the Meteors and Black Hole would be random. The 'alternate dimension' stuff would be a good addition too, maybe some 1v1 fights to get out of the situation.

The main difference is that I don't think it would be the final boss, it would probably be just some middle-road story battle. I don't think that Action would make this particularly difficult, I don't think it's intended to be that type of 'difficult'.

An Action Game 'difficult' version of this would require your Mage to deflect the Meteors above your heads as they fall, AT the target, while the offtank protects the Mage from everything else, and the MainTank tries to keep the target in position for getting hit by the deflected meteors.

The Ranger, Summoner, Fighter and Rogue would get sucked into the cool 1v1 scenarios and get to flex their skills. Good times all around, looking forward to anything on this level (but admittedly yes, I would be sad if this wasn't 'Tier 3' raid content, out of 6-7)

To add to that, in case the unfamiliar care.

The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way.

You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO).

So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore.

Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution.

All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'.

There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Imo they have to be, if they want to be truly hardcore. The whole point of action is the requirement to aim your abilities properly. And the highest difficulty in aiming is the super precise one against fast moving enemies. So, imo, by default you have to have high precision aiming in an action game to make it truly hardcore.

I'd personally do that by the way of vertical body segmentation and requirements to hit different parts of the body to have different effects on your attacks. This would work for both melee and ranged attacks. I'd then add buff/debuff dependencies between all those segmented attacks and would then test the game to see how far I could push the speed of gameplay.

Then, as you say, we just take a good complex tab game and apply its mechanics and encounters to my suggested system, while adding all the stuff I listed. And depending on how good the designers are you'd have yourself a truly hardcore action mmo, by my standards. I imagine it'd be a pain to play, but quite rewarding if you can master it.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Oh come on, I explicitly tried so hard not to make you defensive on this.

I'm saying your stuff SEEMS like a contradiction to ME because you're reducing the skill cap. You are explicitly reducing it. BDO speed isn't unreadable for me at all.

That's why I think DarkTides' point is so correct. There's no point in making a game with defensive mechanics (or offense ones, ofc) that only superhumans CAN USE. I now understand DarkTides' perception of Action Combat games. They are not realistic because they need to be what you are saying. Slow, imprecise, and the PvE similar.

Except that we already have multiple games that don't do those things.

BDO has the speed. MineCraft requires the precision. Absolver PvE is precise.

The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level.

And 90% of people wouldn't play it. I don't know if you would or not, but you aren't asking for that, you're asking for literally NONE of that, so you're already accepting skill tradeoffs so that the game's difficulty is lowered. You just happen to also THINK that all Tab Target games made bigger tradeoffs than that.

But they didn't. Many are 'BDO speed or higher' and 'PvE Absolver or higher', and Precision at least at what you imply. You just don't PLAY them.

Azherae wrote: »

The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level.

After looking at Absolver's gameplay real fast, I'm fairly sure my idea is really close to this

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level.

After looking at Absolver's gameplay real fast, I'm fairly sure my idea is really close to this

Right, because you're crazy lol.

I definitely think you would want to play a game at that tier of 1v1 and input requirements, but you are REALLY not common in that regard.

Azherae wrote: »

Right, because you're crazy lol.

I definitely think you would want to play a game at that tier of 1v1 and input requirements, but you are REALLY not common in that regard.

frfr

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Right, you're saying the same thing as everyone else. In fact, nearly everyone else is more hardcore in their desires than you.

Noaani wants more hardcore strategy so the suggestion might be 'Add no more Action than is necessary/promised'.

NiKr (let's assume) wants more hardcore combat, so the suggestion might be 'Add full movement and real counters' (disqualifies a bunch of stats and converts them to physical skill requirements'.

DarkTides (let's assume) would want more hardcore realism (if Action was being added) so the suggestion might be 'add more precision and movement options' (I think this poster just moreso considers this unnecessary/useless and might prefer just stats).

Your stances is always "just lower all of them, as long as the gameplay is good", and then on top of that "Tab Target takes much less skill".

Your stance is very CLEAR. It just has a weird BASIS.

Fortunately I think that according to my data (almost counterintuitively but not really) most people who want Action Combat only want the level you are talking about, most people who want 'fluid PvP' only want the level BDO offers but even slower. Intrepid is going right for you and the more casual players, and I know that you are definitely one of their 'champions'.

Literally all I keep trying to get you to do is stop ragging on Tab Target unnecessarily . You don't want a hard game ANYWAY, let it go.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

But the gameplay being hardcore would already come from the tab mechanics being used in an action context. I just want to add proper action gameplay, cause to me "turn your character in a direction" is skillless. Yes, the speed might be difficult to get used to, but outside of that there's no real depth to the combat.

And considering my experience in L2, I was already playing an "action" mmo with tab leaning. And I already explained why I think this. So if I was trying to play a true action mmo, I'd want smth that I suggested. The stats would still matter, because you can always design for them to matter. And iirc BDO has rng evasion mechanics even though it's THE action game of the genre.

And as Noaani said, AA appears to be quite similar to what you want, and considering that it was L2's "continuation", I can definitely see how it could be.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

I understand that BDO [EDIT] isn't unreadable to you. It is not unreadable to me. Your perceptions make sense. You believing that more speed is less skill is EXACTLY what I'd expect given everything.

But I can't manage to not start a big defensive rant from you if I explain why, because you don't like accepting it.

You're just slow . You play a slow game in a slow style. I play a very fast game in a very fast style. I hope that Ashes is slow enough that you can enjoy it (I don't know what they were doing with that Fighter Demo that is some crazy). They're just different skills.

But I play Melty Blood, if I couldn't track BDO fights I would not even get to do anything, which is what you describe. Nova is like the second slowest class in BDO.

Azherae wrote: »

You're just slow . You play a slow game in a slow style. I play a very fast game in a very fast style. I hope that Ashes is slow enough that you can enjoy it (I don't know what they were doing with that Fighter Demo that is some crazy). They're just different skills.

I need your opinion on smth. Would you consider this combat fast? (there's iframes on dash and on Q use)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4guShve-pQI

Cause I look at the fighter's showcase and I can't see why you consider it very fast. But I'm also not used to frame readings and analysis so I might be overlooking smth very big.

And I guess as an appeal to the Devs:

Please don't make things too much faster (or at least not constant). I hope that the Fighter showcase was meant to verify the main high speed, but I don't like the stratification of player types that this would lead to in an owPvP game.

I'm sure there will be methods of being successful with slower, more defensive play, particularly if the standard Tab targeting and 'spin-to-win' Fighter options exist, for those who need them, but this path is darkness, it leads to Super Armor... and grabs...

Sure I WANT to be a healing blitz tornado of blades, but I also want normal people to be able to just 'hold block until I make a mistake' like they usually do. At least if I have to use all that speed to get behind them it might be more obvious.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

You're just slow . You play a slow game in a slow style. I play a very fast game in a very fast style. I hope that Ashes is slow enough that you can enjoy it (I don't know what they were doing with that Fighter Demo that is some crazy). They're just different skills.

I need your opinion on smth. Would you consider this combat fast? (there's iframes on dash and on Q use)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4guShve-pQI

Cause I look at the fighter's showcase and I can't see why you consider it very fast. But I'm also not used to frame readings and analysis so I might be overlooking smth very big.

That's gonna lead into a long explanation so I'll try to keep it short and you can just ask more stuff.

1. Genshin does not have its PvP mode yet, and the differences matter a lot depending on what the defensive mechanics are, as I noted in the above post.
2. You are probably capable of playing Genshin PvP and Absolver whereas most people are not (again, to DarkTides' point, we're talking about reaction and defense)
3. The enemies are stationary moreso, it would become frenetic with actual players moving around at that speed and that much. The Frame Data is about normal to me.

Remember that I'm often addressing Mag specifically (I'm sorry about that) and Soul Calibur is MUCH slower.

Genshin is 'close to limit' (about 0.8x).

Here is what most people consider 'limit'.



Pay attention to the parts where they are NOT hitting each other yet, but trying to manage it. If not familiar, aerial moves must be blocked standing, low attacks must be blocked crouching, ambiguous situations should be avoided by jumping or armored moves. That should cover it.

I believe that Genshin PvP will 'turn into something similar to this'. I really hope you enjoy it!

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Yeah, I meant that action combat combined with all the tab complexity would already become hardcore. But I'd personally want it to go even further.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

I meant it comparatively to what I'd like to play. Yes, counter play in action mmos is definitely more prevalent than in tab ones, purely because you have more ways to utilize it. Tab games might provide you with a few abilities to counter your enemy's moves, while the whole point of action games is to constantly counter your opponent's moves.

But what I want is more verticality in combat. The Absolver gameplay seems close to what I'm talking about. There's high/mid/low strikes and counters to all of those (or at least vertically segmented defenses). It's pretty much a proper 3d fighting game, by the looks of it.

And, imo, compared to the potential depth of that kind of game, plain action games like NW, BDO or LA are so fucking easy they're not even worth mentioning. If they had complex ability interdependencies from tab games they'd definitely be closer to the hardcoreness that I'd like, but they would still just be "2d" games imo.

It's pretty much the same as your comparison of SC to other 2d fighters. You liked SC because it gave you more depth with that 3rd dimension. I want the same for action games, but I believe (and Azherae and others seem to agree) that the game that I want would be barely played, because its complexity would be waaaay too fucking high for any normal person. You seem to agree with that too, considering you don't want those kinds of complexities added to the game.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

I'd need to see how exactly they're planning on doing that. And I haven't played GW2, which seems to be the closest to AoC in combat design, so I got no clue what Intrepid could even do.

But no matter what they go for, it'll definitely be way less hardcore than what I'd prefer. I'm fine with that though, mainly because I want the game to succeed and not just be smth that only I would play.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

If you have changed your stance from what you have said in the past, then I apologize.

I don't want to have the discussion about the whole 'don't add more Action because it lowers tactics' thing. As long as we can all agree that it's a SLIDER for skill and which type of skill, then I have no argument. Noaani wishes 'less action so that there can be more thinking skills'.

I will repeat that I don't agree with Noaani on this entirely because I also like the physical skills and IF they make PvE enemies with the correct types of physical skill challenges, I will consider it to be just as fun and tactical as a fully Tab Target encounter.

I am not arguing with you if you are not saying that Tab requires less skill OR if you are saying 'Skill in Tab could be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. I also believe that some 'skill in Tab can be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'.

It's called ArcheAge.