Is combat in AOC meaningful?

Post by Julixim on 2023-02-21 12:00:11

We have not received permission from Julixim to share this post.

Post by Talents on 2023-02-21 14:33:47

We have not received permission from Talents to share this post.

Post by Ace1234 on 2023-02-21 15:32:12

We have not received permission from Ace1234 to share this post.

Post by WeGbored on 2023-02-21 18:28:41

We have not received permission from WeGbored to share this post.

Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-21 18:30:56

We have not received permission from WeGbored to share the quoted post.
Where would you want difficulty to come from then? If it's not "you gonna die real quick if you mess up" then what?

Post by SunScript on 2023-02-21 20:44:34

We have not received permission from WeGbored to share the quoted post.
Where would you want difficulty to come from then? If it's not "you gonna die real quick if you mess up" then what?

You want the short or the long answer? Ah what the heck I'm feeling generous, I'll give both.

Short: stacked status effects and coordination difficulties. One-shots are the poor man's idea of balance, it comes from bad MMO diet. Really unfortunate stuff.


Long: I'll just give you an example whipped up from my day to day FFXI experience. This is the basics.

We go into a dungeon and engage some random goblin suitable for our level. Midway through the fight, the healer ends up taking a few hits because the tank lost hate temporarily (he was trying to heal and thus couldn't use Stun in time and the opponent got off a big move and thus lowered their hate toward the tank you see). What this means is a number of things:
  • It means that skeleton a room back is now coming with an army (undeads have blood aggro so they attack people at low hp and can 'smell' them from a distance)
  • It means the bard might need to AoE sleep a bunch of unintentional aggro and we need to coordinate and decides who fights what, because attacking a slept mob wakes them up which is sometimes a recepy for a TPK
  • It means your skillchain might need to change to something completely different mid fight (whoever ends the skillchain gets the hate generated by the skillchain), which essentially means our entire party needs to reconfigure their scheme mid combat
  • It means the healer might need to change who gets haste (putting haste on the tank instead of the DPS) or delay removing the status on someone
  • It means I might need to consider whether I have to Cure Waltz now or can still save TP (TP is a gauge you build up as you attack) for my weaponskill
  • It means I need to consider if to switch from Aspir Samba (party wide MP regen on hit) so Drain Samba (party wide HP regen on hit)
  • It means I might need to consider blowing my own Chakra (big self heal on big cooldown) early instead of using it to remove blind/paralysis because being at full health removes some of the burden of the healer and it means they take less hate for a bit due to healing, so things can stabilize
  • It means that suddenly I blew a bunch of my stored TP on healing and status removals, which puts me out of sync with the TP generation of the party member I was supposed to skillchain with, thus throwing a wrench both in our DPS and our ability to keep hate stably on the tank.
  • During this entire time, our Dark Knight needs to mentally keep track of the opponent's TP (which is invisible) despite the fact that our attack pacing changed and thus the speed or their TP generation. This is because the Dark Knight can drain TP and thus delay enemy weaponskills. It keeps us alive.
  • The Dark Knight and Paladin both have stuns to stop big enemy attacks and they need to coordinate their own timings so they don't both do it at once, but alternate.

We manage to win and breathe easily for a bit. No, I'm just kidding, it's time for the next monster. This time we select a Crab because our WHM is low on MP and if I use Aspir Samba on such a tanky mob with MP, our White Mage can regain MP in time for the next fight. We obviously have to keep in mind respawn timers on those goblins we fought earlier. If we mess up, they will respawn and aggro on us and kill all of us. And we need to make sure not to blow all of our TP on the crab, we need it for the goblins.

There's many other examples, and many types of fights and tactics, but I wanted to keep it simple for now.

Post by WeGbored on 2023-02-21 20:48:00

We have not received permission from WeGbored to share this post.

Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-21 21:07:00

There's many other examples, and many types of fights and tactics, but I wanted to keep it simple for now.
While I totally agree with and definitely want that kind of complexity in the game's combat, what you described is pretty much "one-shot" in my eyes. It just comes in another form and has a slightly different approach to the "you mess up - you die quickly" design. Except instead of a quick reaction-requiring mechanic it's more of a prolonged "proper planning and execution" one. And while I want that second one very very much, I'm pretty sure that the majority of players would simply say that the game is too hard and that their party members keep fucking up the execution.

Hell, after watching a few of Asmon's raid streams, I'm not even sure that the "step out of the red zone" mechanic is approachable enough for the laymen player. And with Ashes already having a shitton of "this game is not for you" mechanics, I dunno how many more of those the game could take before losing the absolute majority of its potential playerbase.

Now, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a variety of pve designs, but iirc FF11 had that kind of complexity on pretty much all of its combat and I'm not sure how many people would like that in Ashes (especially considering the potential of pvp during any pve encounter). And I think FF11's combat was way slower than what we've seen in AoC, so that complexity would be increased tenfold and would require top lvl skill from the players during any given encounter.

Post by Azherae on 2023-02-21 21:15:21

You've definitely reminded me once again that I put too much hope in this Genre because it happened to do a thing I liked once.

On the one hand I want to argue, but on the other hand I've watched randoms try to fight things in Monster Hunter.

Hopefully someday, I don't have time to make an MMO and even if I did, people probably wouldn't actually play it.

Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-21 21:19:42

Hopefully someday, I don't have time to make an MMO and even if I did, people probably wouldn't actually play it.
I'd play it :)

Post by Julixim on 2023-02-21 23:23:05

We have not received permission from Julixim to share this post.

Post by Julixim on 2023-02-21 23:31:06

We have not received permission from Julixim to share this post.

Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-21 23:37:30

We have not received permission from Julixim to share the quoted post.
You either quoted the wrong person or complained about the wrong comment. Sun wasn't addressing your OP.

Post by daveywavey on 2023-02-22 13:44:13

We have not received permission from daveywavey to share this post.

Post by Solvryn on 2023-02-22 17:27:36

We have not received permission from Solvryn to share this post.

Post by Hinotori on 2023-02-22 17:39:07

We have not received permission from Hinotori to share this post.

Post by Noaani on 2023-02-22 17:45:42

We have not received permission from Noaani to share this post.

Post by Arya_Yeshe on 2023-02-23 23:37:37

We have not received permission from Arya_Yeshe to share this post.

Post by Solmyr on 2023-02-24 03:34:18

We have not received permission from Solmyr to share this post.

Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-24 14:05:54

We have not received permission from Solmyr to share the quoted post.
The melee weapon showcase had a bit of what you're talking about. Mainly the pushback mechanic. I really hope they can keep that design up for the majority of mobs in the game and definitely all the bosses.

And I think even with a heavy tab lean in design, the combat could still be way more active. You just gotta make the blocking costly, make the dodge stat-based on top of a pure dodge for the action part of the combat (say, when you're in a dodge move your evasion stat is strongly boosted) and have mobs hit like a truck (kinda already the case, judging by the tank showcase). Couple all of that with a good AI and the unique animations that MH has and you'll have yourself an awesome visceral mmo combat.

Though I ain't a game designer or a coder so I dunno how hard that kind of design would be to realize in an mmo.

Post by ClintHardwood on 2023-02-24 16:59:40

We have not received permission from ClintHardwood to share this post.

Post by Xenra on 2023-02-26 09:33:12

We have not received permission from Xenra to share this post.