Post by JustVine on 2023-04-13 18:08:58
Speaking for my group today at least for now. 80 - 90 minutes
We have not received permission from Vaknar to share the quoted post.
Killing mobs, gathering in-dungeon resources, fighting bosses, pvping people for all of those things. Story is a one-time thing, even if it's a whole series of quests. I'm thinking super long periods of time. Dungeons should be permanently important and pit people against each other.We have not received permission from Vaknar to share the quoted post.
We have not received permission from Vaknar to share the quoted post.
Ok well I think you know who my 'leader' is by now. If she doesn't pass through soon I'll summon her for you. I think she was taking a break for a bit.
Relative to Point #1 - @GrandSerpent @SunScriptWe have not received permission from Vaknar to share the quoted post.
Ok well I think you know who my 'leader' is by now. If she doesn't pass through soon I'll summon her for you. I think she was taking a break for a bit.
Ashes of Creation has some intent to have 8 person groups. Open world Dungeon experiences, I would assume to be content that at least can be done without very heavy planning, but given the PvP competitive nature of the game and the expected balancing, it should always be optimal to have all 8. Arranging a timeframe for 8 people, even people who are used to doing this, consistently, creates a situation where you must line up 8 availability windows.
30 minutes is optimal for that, but not optimal for points #2 and #3.
Relative to Point #2 - @JustVine @SongRune
Ashes of Creation has some intent to have dynamic content and potentially PvP competition. Players need to be able to 'fail' or 'be pushed into a corner' at least once without feeling like they have to give up due to time constraints. They need the flexibility to choose, here. If they try it once and fail, either there should be 'something else happening' for them to go do, or they should be able to regroup and retry at the same time when everyone is fresh still. This is particularly true for those who take longer to 'warm up' or 'change over' from their standard day mindsets. Non-tacticians can end up with the feeling that they do not stand much chance of success. This implies to some that content should be shorter and therefore more repeatable, but this does not work for Dungeons, as the situation changes quickly. There needs to be a 'buffer space' at the entrance or while navigating the Dungeon of 20m or so for those people to assess their status, and then still be able to engage the content with at least one failure chance.
20-30 minutes 'easy buildup to boss or deep dungeon content', 20-30 minutes Boss/Mission-like content attempt #1, 30 minutes 'celebration and winding down' or 'retry' (likely to have failed previous section quicker than 30m so full retry is possible.
Few things are worse than 'wanting to retry a challenge and not having enough time for everyone to do so.
We have not received permission from Vaknar to share the quoted post.
Ok well I think you know who my 'leader' is by now. If she doesn't pass through soon I'll summon her for you. I think she was taking a break for a bit.
Feedback will be expanded upon in subsections by the group members that face the effects of different changes in their own posts.
An FFXI 'Assault' or BCNM has a 30 minute timer. Assaults are 'missions' with special parameters, BCNMs are usually boss battles.
A player must be able to experience three things to stably enjoy their game session, as I know it.
1. Ability to plan their participation according to the normal 'time blocks' available to the standard working adult or reasonably studious teenager.
2. Ability to enjoy the content without needing to go 'straight to 100%' for those of us who cannot due to the mindsets required for either work or study.
3. Ability to enjoy a reasonable challenge and fit in most if not all of the after-progress, particularly for those who roleplay slightly or more than that.
Relative to Point #1 - @GrandSerpent @SunScript
Ashes of Creation has some intent to have 8 person groups. Open world Dungeon experiences, I would assume to be content that at least can be done without very heavy planning, but given the PvP competitive nature of the game and the expected balancing, it should always be optimal to have all 8. Arranging a timeframe for 8 people, even people who are used to doing this, consistently, creates a situation where you must line up 8 availability windows.
30 minutes is optimal for that, but not optimal for points #2 and #3.
Relative to Point #2 - @JustVine @SongRune
Ashes of Creation has some intent to have dynamic content and potentially PvP competition. Players need to be able to 'fail' or 'be pushed into a corner' at least once without feeling like they have to give up due to time constraints. They need the flexibility to choose, here. If they try it once and fail, either there should be 'something else happening' for them to go do, or they should be able to regroup and retry at the same time when everyone is fresh still. This is particularly true for those who take longer to 'warm up' or 'change over' from their standard day mindsets. Non-tacticians can end up with the feeling that they do not stand much chance of success. This implies to some that content should be shorter and therefore more repeatable, but this does not work for Dungeons, as the situation changes quickly. There needs to be a 'buffer space' at the entrance or while navigating the Dungeon of 20m or so for those people to assess their status, and then still be able to engage the content with at least one failure chance.
20-30 minutes 'easy buildup to boss or deep dungeon content', 20-30 minutes Boss/Mission-like content attempt #1, 30 minutes 'celebration and winding down' or 'retry' (likely to have failed previous section quicker than 30m so full retry is possible.
Few things are worse than 'wanting to retry a challenge and not having enough time for everyone to do so.
Relative to Point #3 - @GrandSerpent @GrilledCheeseMojito
Ashes of Creation hopes to foster dynamism and related feelings, and some people need the ingame feedback of success and some time to enjoy it before heading off for their next obligation, even if they return later. Social people enjoy explicitly doing this with their friends. But quick content isn't satisfying for some, and it's too fast to get any real 'RP' out of. Those people need both, sometimes all three, and Ashes not only lacks fast travel, but getting back out of the dungeon safely with the loot is part of the dungeon .
The misery of 'having to leave your team who might need you to help them win PvP to actually escape with your spoils' is what I'm talking about here. At least if one only wins after a retry at the boss you can feel 'well that was somewhat on us for not being strong enough to win in one try', but 'warming up, being properly challenged, winning, and then having to leave your allies to fend for themselves' is a pain point that can't be understated.
These are the three components to a 'Dungeon Run' in Ashes of Creation that I consider important. Not everyone can be 'warmed up' in less than 20-30 minutes. We don't enjoy challenges that take less than 15m in a synergy-heavy game, certainly not with 8 person or larger groups. Escaping with the spoils is its own entire experience that requires a similar coordination.
Since I didn't really know if this was a question about 'how big should the dungeon be' or 'how strong should the bosses be', I gave the entire explanation.
EDIT: @SpaceWolf - in case of any additional general notes.