Aggro/Threat mechanics don't work in PvX

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Is this because you are talking about 'Playing Ashes primarily in Action Reticle mode' and don't want this effect because it would be troublesome then? I don't think it's unreasonable to have effects that one counters by 'entering Tab Target mode' in a hybrid game.

I've brought that up before. Mag disagrees with this position.

Surely, but I'm actually trying to figure out bases.

In an Reticle Camera only game, I would not want this type of Taunt.

But because Ashes uses terms that people interpret differently, I can't say for certain yet. There are games where you can't 'turn your character around to see their face without stopping movement' (BDO), games where you can do this anytime and the camera control is separate and constant (Monster Hunter) and games where the game is third person but the reticle is always your character's facing direction (Predecessor).

In the first case of game, it depends on implementation, which is where I assume this disconnect comes from.

In the second case, as they say 'skill issue'. I am not claiming that the skill should be required or is fun to use, but it is certainly an intentional design choice with a clear reasoning. I think this might be the type we are talking about but Mag7 does not enjoy playing and considers clunky (but I'm working on finding that out now).

In the third case, I don't mind based on balance, any taunts such as Countess' ult are explicitly meant to do this, there's no ambiguity, there's no "You expect me to do something executionally to counter this effect" (this isn't true for Predecessor specifically because you can do something executionally, but by the time you've done it, the effect has had its purpose, it wouldn't be 'worth it' as an MMO Taunt.

@Mag7spy - please try to bear in mind here that just because I don't find it 'clunky' doesn't mean that I like this or want it implemented. I just realistically know that Steven enjoys certain types of gaming/combat and could easily be completely fine with this implementation instead of relentlessly pursuing some unproven method.

Remember that joke about how you definitely support all the core principles except that one you really don't like?

"You can solve this problem using our hybrid combat system by switching to Tab Target mode or using your Tab Target skills."

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But wait we kinda had this in Ashes too...

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What would you see as a non-OP taunt mechanic? Iirc you mentioned CC-based solutions before, but if you're talking about CC-based taunts in the context of them getting used often and in sizeable aoes (as you keep mentioning) - I'd call those super OP in an mmo where "there's 20 tanks taunting you from all sides".

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Which is why I asked about it in the q&a thread, though I doubt they'll pick my question, considering they've done so 2 months in a row already.

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No, those aren't taunts. They don't affect player behaviour enough.

I base this on my studying of games that have these.

Only two things do the job of a taunt. One is easy, one is hard for me personally in design, I can't speak for others. Maybe someone more skilled than me will achieve it. I will be glad to see it and study from them when I meet that person.

But at the moment, forced Target is the only consistent Taunt I have ever seen, and I prefer to give feedback and have discussions based on the current state of the genre/combat in games.

If you believe that AoE or zonal protection is equivalent to a Taunt, there's not much to discuss, though, we'll never agree there.

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This is a debuff. Players treat it as a debuff. You don't need to attack the tank if you were close to killing a target. You just keep attacking the target with your reduced damage.

Since the Tank already should have proper damage reduction anyway, it is not better to hit the tank in this situation, it's a noob trap for unskilled players or an 'indicator' for roleplayers.

Or it is so incredibly broken due to the tuning required to make it work, that you get 'Tank Meta'. You know of this from Overwatch/Paladins I assume, and those games don't even have the full version of it.

The reason I care about the difference is that a debuff doesn't make you attack the Tank or make most better players WANT to attack the Tank, whereas a Taunt by my definition should make you really want to attack the Tank no matter what role you are playing

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And unless that dmg reduction is nearing 50++%, I don't think all that many people would even attack the tank. It also does not influence non-dps classes AT ALL. L2's tanks could help against a healer with their aggroes, which was highly appreciated in pvp. And depending on how healers/supports are designed in Ashes, tanks could be valuable against them here as well.

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It's fun for me, so we're back to 'you claiming that what I find fun isn't fun for you'. We understand that already. We can go back to 'agreeing to disagree' now, ya?

No matter how 'wild' our perspective is, it's a common enough one that a basic parse of WoW Tank threads brings it up.

Just gotta figure out if Lead Combat/Archetype designer agrees with you, or agrees with NiKr. Not much we can do to expand the discussion from here since the temp camera thing didn't work out/wasn't relevant. We've just got too many strong fundamental biases towards each other's viewpoints/personalities to have any discussion on this one.

I do think you should make your case a bit better if you want to help Intrepid though. NiKr could too. I can't really contribute because I don't handle this in this way, design wise, so if Intrepid says 'we couldn't find a better answer so we put in the Forced Target' I'll just go 'Understandable, have a nice day' and play on.

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I haven't looked into the original Lineage, but L2 had taunt working on people back in 2004. Dunno if other mmos did as well at the time.

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr could too.

Yeah, I just don't really know how at this point. My main point so far is "tank should have same protective tools in both pve and pvp. Taunt is one of those tools".

And as for the forced camera move - I already pinged Vaknar with a suggestion to have a dev discussion on those kinds of mechanics (fear is probably the other biggest one of this kind).

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From a design perspective this makes no sense because your goal is always to kill the enemy that is likely to kill you or prevent your objective.

Killing the Tank is not priority because usually the Tank is least likely to kill you. This is why people complain about Tank space/strength in PvP, and why only noobs try to kill the Tank still in games without a 'point' to contest like Overwatch.

The only way to make this work is the "If you don't respond to my Taunt I will suddenly become the most likely to kill you'' type effect.

That effect is very hard to build.

There are currently no games where you can have multiple Tanks with an AoE damage reduction that doesn't result in the balance problem. BDO couldn't even manage this when Protected Area was on Mages and had to nerf it.

Damage redirection to Tank is good but not a reason to attack the Tank, this does not work even in games with low healing.

The thing that 'depends on balance' here is 'which way it fails/which way players play around it'. I would never ask a developer to go through the nightmare of trying to balance a Tauntless Tank with the goal of having people desire to attack them first in an open world game. I'd be setting them up to fail and just giving them the choice of which way they fail in.

NiKr wrote: »

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I haven't looked into the original Lineage, but L2 had taunt working on people back in 2004. Dunno if other mmos did as well at the time.

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr could too.

Yeah, I just don't really know how at this point. My main point so far is "tank should have same protective tools in both pve and pvp. Taunt is one of those tools".

And as for the forced camera move - I already pinged Vaknar with a suggestion to have a dev discussion on those kinds of mechanics (fear is probably the other biggest one of this kind).

Oh, actually that's my misunderstanding (technically me trying to temper my arrogance).

I'm used to my own group 'defining what they want and then handing it off to me to handle the details', and that causes me to offend people online by assuming they would do the same so I explicitly avoid doing it.

I think your tendency is closer to theirs though.

So I rescind that comment, this isn't some point you 'need to make', I expect you'll be happy as long as they get something working and don't end up with the usual 'weak PvP Tank'.

Mag you can ignore my comments about making your case better too, because the 'levels' of conversation happening here aren't aligned. NiKr wants the same thing as you but 'is willing to accept the easy solution'. I 'want the same thing as you but I don't see the things you say as realistic or solutions' (and personally don't have a problem with the easy solution).

Which raises a better question...

At what point, in 'Dev Hours' would you be willing to give up and accept the Forced Target taunt? Basically, how many hours of balance do the Devs have to do to avoid this, for you? (assuming you care at all). Because I think you understand that balancing this isn't easy, at least.

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My point was that taunts weren't created just for pve. Also, I'm not sure how a pve taunt is different from a pvp one (especially in the context of a tab game). At least when it comes to the main goal of a taunt, which is to make the target attack you.

Also, it's very unfair to mobs that they're playing a tab game, while players are playing an action one. It's only fair to equalize those I support mob rights!

Azherae wrote: »

So I rescind that comment, this isn't some point you 'need to make', I expect you'll be happy as long as they get something working and don't end up with the usual 'weak PvP Tank'.

Yeah, pretty much. L2's tanks were already kinda weaker bards, cause the 2 main bards of the game stemmed from the tank line of classes, so they had a taunt and then had super powerful buffs, so the only use of a tank was his one super strong def buff (this was resolved later, but still with just buffs instead of something more interesting).

So I'd definitely prefer if AoC's tanks had their own individuality, that would work in a pvx setting. Whether that comes in the way of pve feeling like pvp or all tank abilities working in the same way in both - I wouldn't really care either way, as long as it works.

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Seems the conversation isn't gonna happen. Alright.

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This is a very funny question, considering that my entire point for the past 7 pages has been "I want pvp taunt to work in the exact same way as the pve one does"

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Oh, this brings up a point I missed before. Mag, have you played mmos with a proper support/bard class in them? Does BDO have that? I don't remember it having one.

Cause so far I feel like what you're imagining for the tank gameplay is just bard gameplay, but with just a bit more thicqness on the character.

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I've described it before. Tanks have a direct taunt ability, as a standalone skill. I want that thing to be usable in both pve and pvp, with the same effect. All the other abilities can have +aggro effects or stuff that Noaani mentioned in other tank gameplay discussions (switching aggro list placements, wiping the list, etc). And the aoe taunt can simply have different ranges between the two (just as I'm sure other abilities will).