What Should The Benefit to Action Combat Be?

Post by Noaani on 2021-06-16 19:54:56

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Post by Vhaeyne on 2021-06-16 20:03:59

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Post by mcstackerson on 2021-06-16 20:31:34

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Post by Azherae on 2021-06-17 03:08:19

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No worries, it didn't come across that way at all.

My goal is slightly different so I totally get it. The other Combat Discussion thread, for example, many of the original posters that the framework came from never actually came back to it, and there are other people who only visit occasionally, and I wouldn't want that 'missed out'.

I guess they'd show up much more when the Visual NDA lifts, but since the full Alpha-1 was pushed back, it just ended up getting squirrely and possibly they might miss it. Anyway...

The idea of 'the highest rank of a (pinpoint) skill making it into an Action Target skill and also adding the final extra damage and effect' came to mind, but I'm not sure that's what you were actually saying?

Post by truelyyy on 2021-06-17 08:56:17

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Post by Dygz on 2021-06-17 15:15:36

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Post by Azherae on 2021-06-17 15:30:35

I've got some minor concerns in both directions due to the way the PvE vs PvP balance ends up if you make it so people do this.

I'd moreso expect it to be something like:

Rank 1 Tab Target Javelin with no real CC
Rank 2 Action Combat Javelin with some CC
Rank 3 back to Tab Target Javelin with some weaker but similar CC.

If it went the other way, with the Action Combat version coming in at Rank 3, even if you made it so that the Evasion stat was factored much less, this still seems like a 'punishment'. You pay more Skill Points (which, btw, are quite precious right now as of current build) to get a skill that misses because of you instead of because of stats, but this creates a gap between 'good' PvE builds and 'good' PvP builds.

Alternately it could cause a ripple effect in 'how mobs are designed', and I've actually seen that in quite a few games. Mobs are dumbed down or worse, less affected by CC or skills, purely so that PvP abilities make more sense. I don't expect Ashes to take this route, but it's because I don't expect this, that I'm worried for the Action Combat fans.

I think we all, also, have some 'interest' in the team not spending massive amounts of time overhauling small bits with 'cascading complaints', which is what I hope we can come together and 'help them skip'.

Development time is actually one of the most precious resources they have, even if we as a community, have the majority opinion of 'take your time, make it great', if even a single 'majority' or even 'consensus' can save them a 'test' of an unwanted medium-sided idea, this saves literally weeks of man hours.

I say this as someone whose primary job for years was 'estimating and assigning development time for tasks and QA of the result'. We are talking massive time savings here.

You want to go back to QA only when your implementation isn't doing exactly what is described, not because it causes another problem somewhere else. And you want to go back to the drawing board as little as possible.

Post by Merek on 2021-06-18 06:27:46

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Post by Conrad on 2021-06-19 09:48:24

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Post by Vhaeyne on 2021-06-19 11:36:51

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Post by Azherae on 2021-06-19 12:29:13

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I hear ya.

What annoys me even more than that, though, is that the term 'good' has no set definition when it comes to video games. People trying to box game designers in with their personal arbitrary definitions of 'good' is not good for anyone. Especially not people who want the games they buy to be RPGs.

Post by Vhaeyne on 2021-06-19 12:44:31

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Post by Hasil on 2021-06-20 03:04:52

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Post by Solvryn on 2021-06-27 02:59:43

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Post by Azherae on 2021-06-27 10:35:42

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Role Playing:
The first requirement here is that a role can be defined, and it implies choice. Paladins and Overwatch are game in which I play different roles depending on the map, but we do not consider these RPGs.

In Paladins we can make choices of 'passives' and slots. They look like the current Ashes ones. Technically Paladins has more passives than Ashes right now, and they're better tuned. This is still not 'an RPG'.

Persistence is the first part. The second part is 'being able to choose how to play your role'. There is some benefit to your role being somewhat divorced from your physical skill at something, for these. This is debatable in terms of if it 'makes a game less of an RPG', but there is a benefit. I've seen arguments in this thread that the 'game shouldn't be catered to players who can't all be good'. This is obvious, but misleading. A 'Ten Word Answer. You can't just 'make things so hard that only 1% of people can do them', either. Or rather, if you do, expect a strange world.

The overall difference between Paladins and Ashes is that Paladins can entirely gate your ability to fulfill your role behind mechanical skill that is directly opposed by the mechanical skill of your opponent , and RPGs as they have been generally defined until now, do not require this. You can decide 'that definition is not suitable', but the thing is that we have other 'names' for those games. MOBA, Fighting Game, Space Combat Simulator, Action (Hunting), etc.

Ashes is foremost a Fantasy MMORPG.

The games that have generally made the player's role dependent on their mechanical skill and minimized the effects of stats, have reduced the 'role' aspect heavily to the point where some people might be tempted to say 'enough is enough, draw the line, stop calling these games MMORPGs to trick me into buying them'. (I don't have a better way of wording this, if you nitpick on this I will ignore it as a bad faith argument).

The player still plays a role, but because everyone else's choices directly impact their ability to fulfill that role (unlike a single Player RPG), and the choice made can entirely 'gate' the choices the player makes into uselessness, your 'role' can be outright deleted. This is why metas in MMOs exist. This is why builds, even decent ones, get sidelined. Other players have decided, either through direct opposition, or ostracism, that 'you are not allowed to fulfill that role' or 'you are not allowed to fulfill that role in that way'. Single player RPGs can do this much less.

I consider Paladins good. I consider Elite Dangerous good. I consider Guilty Gear games good, I consider Monster Hunter games good. I love all these games, the challenge, the skill of maneuvering, etc.

And I don't consider any of these games RPGs. And I definitely don't consider any of them to be good as RPGs.

But right now (in this stage of development specifically, not saying anything about the design concept) they are all unfortunately better RPGs than Ashes, if we open up that definition.

I can 'choose my build', choose my stats, choose how I will focus on interacting with my opponent and my teammates, and then apply mechanical skill against my opponents, and with the exception of Guilty Gear (yet sorta not, which is dependent on grinding out combos, the equivalent of 'gear') I can do all this better than I can in Ashes because the main RPG systems aren't in yet.

If Ashes builds such that Action Combat can bypass 'build stats' or pigeonhole people into specific enough builds, then those games, particularly Paladins, will continue to be 'better RPGs than Ashes', if you reject the above definition. Because the persistence aspect will mean that not only are the less practiced players relegated mostly the 'role' of 'serf fodder to amuse the warlords', they will end up persistently so .

Post by Ramirez on 2021-06-27 10:47:12

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Post by Azherae on 2021-06-27 10:56:13

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I don't think so. That's the point of the question. I think technically that means your answer is '3'.

Post by Percimes on 2021-06-27 13:09:36

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Post by Solvryn on 2021-06-27 19:47:49

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