Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

We have not received permission from BlackBrony to share the quoted post.

This sounds like a feudal society. 'Subjugate the casuals with the threat of violence' to do all the filthy low level peasant work you can't be bothered for.

I totally expect this from the games current design and the over all disposition of the current fan base. The real question would therefore be 'is that 'fun' for the peasant casuals?' I don't think so but I am not a casual if they dont screw up farming and summoning, so I thankfully, have noble privileges.

Your average Jane Doe who got home from a crappy slave wage job, just to relax in a fun mmo might have stronger opinions.

We have not received permission from CROW3 to share the quoted post.

That's a completely different discussion and not even really argument against what I said. It also has a tacit assumption that Ashes should not have designs to prevent such a situation.

We have not received permission from CROW3 to share the quoted post.

It is because I knew we disagreed on this point that I called it an argument since like I said, accepting that premise tacitly accepts that the premise 'should be how the final product ends up.'

There are a lot of reasons why design should recognize players with less time to play. Mainly, it effects everyone's experience not just the casuals. Why? Because it effects new players experience too. Therefore I don't see them as second class consumers relative to the design of the game.

Although I do agree that the hardcore/veteran audience should have a 20-30 % tilt on decision making. (Those numbers were a joke please don't take my imaginary numbers seriously.)

We were unable to determine the author of the quoted post.

Right, it's their 'responsibility'. It's Ashes that needs to decide how attractive they need the casual and new player experience to be. Casuals always make up the bulk of both in game economies and a companies wallet unless they specifically choose to ignore the design challenges such payers present relative to their design experience.

We have not received permission from CROW3 to share the quoted post.

I don't disagree with you that they are a heterogenous mix. While I think we can agree to disagree on the fact that it's 'not a solid foundation', I hope you realize that what I really am trying to get across here is that the new player and casual players experience of content leveling up to max is going to be effected by much of the same design principles, not that they will 'be after the same things and therefore have the same over all experience'.

Can we at least agree that a new person who let's say 'get's up to speed' of the first 120 hours in one month is going to face similar challenges that gear disparity brings than the casual player who took 2 months to get to the same place? They both must come to terms with the hardcore person who plays 6-8 hours a day for that same 2 months.

(I tried really hard to make this point without imaginary numbers but I'll admit it was a task beyond my skill, please forgive me.)

We were unable to determine the author of the quoted post.

We agree on this. However they also seem to be preparing for such players to show up in large numbers given their intentions for the player economy and scale of activities. Their play experience needs to be of some level of consideration to the challenges they face as a result of the rest of the design.

We were unable to determine the author of the quoted post.

PvP directly effects all parts of the game. If they are not able to compete in PvP, they are going to be relegated to the bottom rung of 'society'. You can't turn PvP off after all (and it should stay that way.)

Now, where I think we agree here is that 'it's kind of inevitable that there is going to be a bottom rung.' My original 'appeal' here was that 'there are many ways the bottom rung can look like and a 'feudal system'' may be particularly unappealing. People want the ability to fight back and have a chance to win. It's part of the fun right?

I'm of the camp that 'skill can be acquired and 'imported' from elsewhere' much more quickly than one can grind gear'. So to me the more gear matters, the less broadly you can appeal to that. I don't know if Ashes current design will make such an appeal possible or not. I simply lack enough data to tell.

I do have enough information to tell, though, that PvP is going to massively impact things that are usually places that casuals benefit from and can be competitive in (crafting and some forms of economic activity.) So 'I worry' a bit for their sake.

You are free to tell me that I shouldn't worry or it's wrong to worry about it, but that'd be where our conversation ends in that case. Not because I'd be offend, it's just an impasse. And I know dwarves with arrows can beat me in a rocky impasse like that so I'll just 'forfeit' in advance ;p

We were unable to determine the author of the quoted post.

Fair, I do not retract it, but that is valid criticism with my argument. I'll make an effort to minimize my using it in my discussions with you.

As a side question, you said 'Ashes is going to make a product that leans hardcore, and provides an environment where casual players can do quite a bit.' What if anything do you think casuals who have a lot of natural and practiced skill from other games are going to be 'competitive' in a game with this level of importance in PvP?

We have not received permission from Caww to share the quoted post.

Maybe so, but what most people would call 'hardcore' is one of Ashes' main selling points.

It's not actually particularly groundbreaking in most other aspects, and nearly everything else about it is 'unproven' and 'in development'. So selling itself as many posters put it, as a highly dynamic game with lots of power struggles, and by extension, the related gap between 'Casuals' and 'Hardcore', is its main bulwark against stagnation.

As of now, they haven't reached the point of being able to show anything that they do significantly better than many other games, other than 'not being p2w and not doing stupid things'. So if their initial main audience were 'looking for a big timesink challenge that tells most 'skill-casuals' to 'accept disruptions', then that's what they should probably stick to, otherwise the first 'new subscription model non-p2w' game that gets churned out by a bigger studio because Ashes manages to succeed', would sap a lot of their subscriptions.

If the 'price' of that is high 'turnover' in casual players due to hardcore grinds and disruption gameplay, it may still be better to keep their loyalists and therefore remain 'relevant' in the MMO space.

We have not received permission from CROW3 to share the quoted post.

Hmm...

I'll get back to you on that one. I have qualms but ones worth thinking through to not trigger a hard side bar.

We were unable to determine the author of the quoted post.

I have been considering something similar. It may happen, but I have two caveats to the logic.

If you or your friends get your crafting materials for free you make more margin, in a properly constructed mmo economy. Better margins does eventually snow ball once an economy starts maturing. A casual has even MORE incentive to gather mats not less, as they have less liquid assets. After all those are usually gained via 'more time input'. And if you want to compete in the economy for sales you will inevitably end up competing with people who have enough money to sell at lower margins.

There are ways around this (friends with more time) but that's not a universal circumstance. Ideally they will make friends, but you can only rely on that so much in your design. In short conflict will happen no matter what unless your casual in spirit not just time available.

We were unable to determine the author of the quoted post.

Competitive exploration huh. Alright, assuming that's relevant to the game I'll buy that with the assumption that good mounts will be obtainable by dedicated casials and it's a lot more reliant on your irl diligence.

Crafting and economics. Maybe, but it relies heavily on the way intrepid designs crafting and itemization relative to it.

Node development? You'd have to explain to me, but alright I can maybe buy that in the frontier.

Competitive in dungeons and raids though? Open world dungeons and raids where everyone has a strong incentive to hit up for good gear or xp? An enclosed space with less places to run??? That's directly PvP or PvX if you want to call it that. I could believe it if I see it, but not until then. That, I think is a gear vs skill percent question. I leave that to op to discuss.

I wonder how large a market there is for competitive exploration.... Interesting thought there.

We were unable to determine the author of the quoted post.

I hope you like german black stout. I don't commonly drink something that weak, but when I do I prefer it have robust flavor. ;p