I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

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Please do expand on that context. I'll gladly admit that I don't always properly understand what others say cause english is my thirds language and no matter how much I try to perfect it, it's just not at a point where I'd want it to be.

But I've reread the posts I linked and they still seem to align with my point.

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So yeah, my mention of killing people on my way to farm applies to this. So even here it's a spectrum rather than just "competitive or not". Due to how L2's dungeons worked (same as Ashes) I was on my way to deeper mobs with better loot and would kill people on my way there if I saw flagged dudes. And their mobs would attack me so I'd kill those mobs too. I'd call that a pvx moment with non-competitive pvp.

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Guess we've got different definitions for competition

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Imo "competition" means a common goal that people fight for. Me fighting/killing someone on my way to somewhere has nothing to do with my goal. I just see a character that I can just kill and I do it. Sometimes they kill me, so it's not like I just dominate everyone I see. But the main point, there was nothing we were competing for.

But you think that just fighting for your life is "a competition". And that's where we disagree.

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Nah, even google has a real vague one. Mag and I (and some others) are just on the different sides of that definition.

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He's not in my way. He's just farming his room and happens to be flagged for whatever reason. I'm just passing by and decide to kill him because he's flagged. It's as easy as that. There's no deeper motivation and nothing we're competing for.

Like I said, we have different definitions of competition

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To me "to win" is not a goal. The win is the result of competition. Competition can only take place when 2 different entities have the same goal (be it "kill a certain mob", "be the first to kill a boss", "be at the top of a leaderboard", "come somewhere first" etc). To me survival is not competitive. To you it isn't either btw, cause, if it was, you'd consider pve to be intrinsically competitive because you're always trying to survive in pve and "compete" with each mob you come across. But you keep telling everyone that you don't consider pve competitive, so me and another dude fighting for our survival can't be competitive either.

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Again, there was nothing to win in those fights. My target was fighting for survival, the same as they would against a mob, and I was just fighting them as I would've any other mob. Except a mob would've given me smth for beating him, while that player gave me literally nothing, even if he died. So if anything, pve is way more rewarding than pvp, hence it's more competitive.

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But we're elitists.

I literally build AI that is meant to mimic and surpass people.

You can ARGUE with Elites, but you can't also expect them to change to your AverageJoe attitude.

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If you can tell the difference between my AI and a real person, either I have failed, or you can tell because the AI is better and since most people aren't that good at stuff, it seems too suspiciously good.

I have this problem with my chatbots, I had to downgrade some of their vocabulary systems because they eventually give themselves away by making too much sense.

It's just funny to me because of the precision of the argument being applied with me specifically around. Kind of weird, huh? I feel like this has happened more than once on this forum, too...

Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

Anyways right, so as to not derail.

Yes, at least I'm an elitist, there's a ton of instances of it, AI are cooler and better challenges than real people, etc.