Unable To CC NonCombatants?! What Does It All Mean?!

We have not received permission from Vaknar to share the quoted post.

So, to answer the quote.

I think it's best if the CC effect doesn't happen but the damage still does, and Intrepid can even clarify which CCs still work and which don't (there's already some implications about Hard and Soft CC).

I wouldn't like it to be 'by ability', I don't feel this would fit Ashes for multiple reasons related to both build viability and just general game understanding, especially if ANY ability can 'receive a CC augment' from ANY Secondary Archetype. This could also be very precisely curated, but I feel like 'blanket points of understanding' are better for games with great depth.

I personally don't like the approach at all, as noted in the other thread, I'd prefer something closer to Lucky Ghost's suggestion, but this IS quite a bit more code, and starts to get into the weeds. My own 'simulation tests' of a related system led to a lot more complexity than Ashes seems to want.

Therefore, within the realm of just 'should Damage+CC abilities get their damage part', I say 'let 'em'.

@Okeydoke brought up the very real problem of 'Green can fight Red without any CC happening'. I don't have a strong negative or positive opinion on this EXCEPT if Red loses access to entire potentially damaging abilities, or abilities that might do things like 'CC opponent while offering Mobility', in the case of another interpretation where you just can't target it.

But with a Hybrid Targeting system I don't expect it to come up, so yeah, my 'vote' is 'let the Damage rock, it's probably easy to turn off the CC aspect anyway'.

Definitely. You should absolutely get the damage half of your abilities, even if you don't get the CC effects. If for no other reason than that it would be a huge discouragement relative to choosing interesting CC effects to augment your damaging abilities. I don't want to see that limited (or even soft-limited) build choice in Ashes of Creation.

Even without considering that, it quickly becomes worse to balance for, and the last thing I want to see is the devs throwing their hands up and just saying "It's easier to put damage and CC on entirely separate abilities". I don't need a game that bland.

"Your CC doesn't work" might be an interesting penalty for corrupted players. "You can't do damage" starts to get pretty harsh.

Totally support CCs not working on greens but still doing dmg.

We have not received permission from Depraved to share the quoted post.

Ok fair, but let's take it at face value that Intrepid, via Vaknar, cares at least a little about our opinions on this.

Since, if it was 'probably going to work like L2', they coulda just said that.

Which do you personally think is BETTER?

Examples of 'what exactly happens when you do these abilities in L2' would probably be helpful to all those people who aren't familiar. Your post, for example, isn't clear about if the Slow still happens. It could have happened because Slow is a 'Soft CC' and only 'Hard CC' didn't work on non-combatants, for example.

NiKr wrote: »

Totally support CCs not working on greens but still doing dmg.

Ok @NiKr , depending on you as usual.

Depraved says 'Slow still works', but that might mean 'Damage+CC still works, both sides work'.

George says 'Shouldn't work, just like L2'.

Which of these is the case in L2?

If that's too binary a question, feel free to actually elaborate on it please.

Azherae wrote: »

Ok NiKr, depending on you as usual.

Depraved says 'Slow still works', but that might mean 'Damage+CC still works, both sides work'.

George says 'Shouldn't work, just like L2'.

Which of these is the case in L2?

If that's too binary a question, feel free to actually elaborate on it please.

Honestly I don't even remember at this point. It could also depend on the update they're referring to. Iirc L2 changed this particular interaction in later updates (as opposed to the very first ones). I thiiiink I mainly played the versions that had damage-based soft CCs that worked against greens.

I tried looking at update patches but couldn't find anything concrete by just quickly skimming through the notes, but I'm fairly sure I remember that it was a big change in the game because a lot of people complained about a class that had Fake Death gathering a ton of mobs then stunning a green player and Fake Dying which moved all of mobs' agro onto the victim.

And just gnomes stunning players (they had the highest chance stuns iirc) who were fighting mobs, because in the early updates if you died to a mob you had a pretty high chance to drop gear.

And on the topic of how I think it should work, I'd like to see soft CCs work against greens (even w/o the dmg part) but have a deagroing effect on the victim. This way any PKer who just wants to kill their target can still slow them down (but the victim can just mount up and run away), while the pve gankers couldn't just run up to someone with a bunch of mobs slow the victim down and leave the mobs to kill the victim.

This would also work against that ganker. If you see someone pulling trains of mobs, you just cast some soft CC onto them and the mobs will start to disperse. This would obviously have to be balanced against any potential locations that work off of train farming, but we don't know if that will even be the case.

And as for gatherer interactions, I'd like for the gathering process to get stopped if the gatherer receives >10%hp dmg while gathering. This way people can still try and prevent a gatherer from getting their desired resource, but there'll also be a timer of sorts on how many times they can do that.

We have not received permission from CROW3 to share the quoted post.

Yeah, any negative move against another non-Red player should flag you up imo.

We have not received permission from Okeydoke to share the quoted post.

As mentioned, some CCs went through, but outside of that I don't remember about the details.

Btw another huge point for me in that Steven's comment was the "corruption takes way longer to grind off than it did in L2". To me that's a pretty big red flag and imo it's just a design flaw that got created purely to justify BHs' existence.

Now that will obviously have to be tested properly, but I can definitely see a potential turn of events where no one dares to PK people which leads to people not flagging up (cause why would they) which leads to uselessness of BHs. Definitely hope we'll see in alpha2 that there's a better way to design the BH system to avoid that situation.

We have not received permission from CROW3 to share the quoted post.

There's a somewhat thin line between being that and having the opportunity to PK an equally-lvled player w/o having 30 mins of high risk mob grind in front of you even if it was your first PK.

And I'll try my best to push for that thin line in my feedback during testing.

We have not received permission from Okeydoke to share the quoted post.

For what it's worth I went through a few PKing vids of L2's archers and none of them used the stun against green players. Now that might've been because archer stun had a fairly small success rate, but they didn't try even though it was the third ability on their bar (and the stun had dmg on it too). So hard CCs might've in fact not go through against greens.

And I personally like it that way as long as grinding off corruption from one kill (<15 count) doesn't take more than 10 minutes.

We have not received permission from Okeydoke to share the quoted post.

Yes.

We have not received permission from Okeydoke to share the quoted post.

Nope. And that's because

We have not received permission from CROW3 to share the quoted post.

By definition they were always murderers. And the "village's people" were always free to punish the murderer. They were bulls that saw red and attacked it immediately, preferably in groups.

And this is mainly why most L2 players begin to counter-complain when they see someone criticize the system. A red player in L2 was a juicy soft bun of loot for anyone who was near his powerlvl. And even if you died to said red player while trying to kill him, you now knew that if you returned to him he'd still be red because he now got even more corruption.

But that kind of situation didn't stop genocidal maniacs from killing lowbies and/or just weaker people. Which is exactly why Steven added the stat dampening. It will prevent those maniacs from going on long rampages. And that's exactly why I'm against

We have not received permission from Okeydoke to share the quoted post.

The punishment for murder is so high and makes your life such utter hell that it should only apply to murder.

As for the harassment part of repeated attacks, I personally see them as a potential necessity to make people socialize more and also a way to keep the harasser accountable (that is, if the victim is socializing). Outside of the obvious "just run away if they're harassing you" there's also the "ask for help" suggestion. If someone's hitting you, they're now flagged for 90s. If they're repeatedly hitting you - they're permaflagged. Any pvp player in the vicinity of a chat shout or a guild/node chat would be glad to come and pvp a dumbo who's harassing people. Same applies against Reds as well.

I've been on both the receiving and the giving end of a "there's a PK in this location" chat shout in L2. And I've come to help countless people due to said shout. I'm sure the same will happen in Ashes as well.

But with all that being said, I still think that there should be some leeway to allow people some amount of PKs (imo ~15) where they don't immediately go into pits of hell for trying to remove a person from a lucrative farming location.

We have not received permission from Dolyem to share the quoted post.

Some examples were given where this is a fairly big problem.

We have not received permission from Dolyem to share the quoted post.

Imo some classes should be shit at ganking. Namely bards, healers and tanks. They can be great enablers for ganking, but not solo gankers themselves. And if you're in a group ganking a solo player and want to have hard CCs on top of that - you're kinda griefing at that point.

And we don't quite know if Steven meant that literally all CCs don't work against greens. It does seem that way from his wording, but I definitely hope they clear that particular mechanic in the upcoming dev stream.

We have not received permission from Okeydoke to share the quoted post.

I meant the PK count of ~15. In other words, a kill here a kill there up until ~15, where after each kill you get the amount of corruption that would take ~5-10 minutes to grind off on the best mobs at your lvl.

And after 15 that grind-off time can increase exponentially, in case someone was trying to kill a ton of lowbies or just wasn't doing the Pk counter removal quest while PKing a lot.