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Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 19:54:03
Well yeah, there's still competition for the loot itself, but I saw it more as a "you literally can't carry all the contents of the caravan even if you wanted to", while in reality it's just "you'll have to fight for your right to grab the loot, but, on the off chance there's no one else around, you can still take it all".
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 19:55:34
I mean, that's a given in any fun game, but I was mainly talking about the tracker people. They'll always find a way to have their way, so these past 120 pages of discussion were pretty much useless But what else is new.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 20:12:17
The only thing it adds is the amount of additional mouse movement that I'll need to do in order to see the things I wanna see. Doesn't sound like a good addition to me.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 20:37:12
Yeah, I agree, cause I've been doing this for 12 years in L2. But as have been stated multiple times here, trackers/meters will still be made if there's a combat log. And I'm fairly sure it'd be made if there even wasn't a log. And Intrepid can't do anything about it. And as specifically Noaani's comments point out, there can't even be an assumption of "good faith" when it comes to the tracker ban, because someone somewhere will use them. Someone else will see (or at least assume) that the other person is using them and will use one ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 20:56:29
How sure are you that this will be the case though? Cause to me this just seems like the middle ground I tried to find from my pov, except from Noaani's pov. Yes, some guilds will just use that perk. But what are the chances that there won't be some other perk that gives you better parsing in raids, that you can't get purely because you spent a point on the tracker. At which point, the guild that is at Noaani's lvl of hardcoreness and not caring about the rules will just go "fuck the guild perk, we're making ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 21:19:25
I'm trying to stay as cautiously neutral as possible, with a tint of negativity to stop myself from falling into hype too much. There have been countless games (let alone mmos) with countless promises. And veeeeery rarely have those promises become reality. Even rarer in mmos. And then we consider the sheer scale of what Intrepid is trying to do and the scale of promises they've made, and I become full with doubt of whether they can truly achieve their goal. As I keep saying, I dearly hope they do, but I'd rather complain about the negative possibilities now ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 21:45:22
While thinking of an answer I came upon a small realization. Noaani says that AA barely used any trackers. In my experience L2 barely used them either (Noaani has a few people who used them, so I dunno whether my experience is special or theirs is). Steven is taking most of his inspiration from those 2 games. Neither of them required trackers to complete their content. So what are the chances that Steven is somewhat like me in thinking "why would you need trackers? All I've heard from a lot of other people is that they've had bad experiences ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 21:47:59
I think I've asked you this before @Noaani but I forget, what was the shape of meta in AA? Was it smth concrete or was there a fair bit of variety in approaches to party setups, both in pvp and in pve?
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 22:11:39
Yeah, I feel like they'll just have a soft stance on it and have a very similar rule to ff14's. Cause the push for them definitely comes from the minority, so there's no real pressure on Steven to implement them, and if he can stand his ground against all the "remove pvp or make it opt-in" people then there's no reason why he wouldn't stand that same ground against the people telling him to allow trackers.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 22:14:26
So yeah, now I'm almost sure the thing I said is the case. Both Steven's biggest inspirations didn't require you to have a tracker to clear content so he doesn't see a point in allowing them. The issue comes from the juxtaposition of that stance and his promises for pve, but considering we've yet to see their top end content, there might not even be an issue in the first place. So yet again it comes down to "wait for alpha2 and see".
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 22:25:47
You see it that way because you agree with Steven's views on pvp (or at least understand their reasoning), but disagree with him on the trackers. Any pve carebear will gladly tell you that pvp will destroy the game and that implementing opt-in features would be better than sliced bread. But, if Steven is anywhere close to my thinking, the reasoning is "the game needs pvp to work properly, but it doesn't need trackers to work properly, so there's no reason to implement them". Yes, several people in this thread have made a good case for tracker usage, but ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 22:41:18
I do agree that this argument will be one of the best to use once we see what kind of bosses Intrepid presents during Alpha2. Obviously there'll be several fan-made trackers during that time, so if you can completely destroy anything that Intrepid throws at you - you just say "Steven, your promise of <10% ain't working out. We get that you want to avoid trackers influencing partymaking in the game so just add it as a guild perk." At that point, imo, there'd be the highest chance of influencing the final decision on this matter. I'm too much ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 23:25:13
I think one of the reasons why I'm against trackers, while completely supporting the supremacy that comes with people figuring out stuff on their own, is that I love the struggle of figuring out smth through your own abilities rather than with a tool, but I'm also completely fine with trusting people when they say that they've figured something new out and that thing is as good (if not better) than the currently accepted one. I guess that's just projection fueled by naivete and gullibility. If I see someone with a completely new build, the first thing I think ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-14 23:36:36
Pretty much what akabear said. You'd just see if the raid was going better or worse than your average run of that boss. The top dps classes were usually the same, so when someone said "I'm telling you, my build of this non-regular class is as good as that regular one you know", you'd be very skeptical of that. And then during the fight you'd see if your rough timings were met. And due to there being no timers on bosses (as far as I remember), your base goal was always to just kill the boss. Doing it faster ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 00:21:07
I was very roughly paraphrasing this Considering that his biggest experience was in L2 and AA (iirc), and those games don't really use trackers, I'd assume that quite a lot of "his experience" here is through hearing other people say it.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 00:35:28
There will be custom emblems in the game, with 3rd reference talking about Guild ones. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Emblems
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 01:17:31
Yes, you can, but you'll need way more time and effort to convince others that your build really works, while tracker would show that objectively. I've seen countless L2 parties deny other people just because their class didn't put out enough dps or they didn't have good enough gear. And as I said before, there were quite a few cases where those things didn't really matter, but you'd only know that they didn't matter if you were open enough to change. And a ton of people aren't. I totally get the desire to have an objective tool to prove ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 02:21:13
It's even less that and more just quality over quantity. There wasn't much to learn about the encounters in the first place, because most encounters were meant to be run dozens and hundreds of times, because either the chance to drop smth really good was low or because you needed a shitton of items from the boss, while he dropped only 1-2 of them per death and had a respawn timer of 2-5 days. How did gear/loot distribution work with EQ2's pace of boss release? Or were they somewhat disconnected from the gear treadmill? Cause each L2 boss (at ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 02:37:28
And if the game has enough variety and depth to do this, then, yes, trackers would be less valued.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 04:28:11
What about bosses though? Or were they just "very hard mobs" with their own very top lvl gear? And I'm assuming the difficult mobs had a long spawn cd, or were they so difficult that even groups of people could only kill them once in a while?
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 04:50:54
So yeah, L2 just had way fewer ways to get gear. You pretty much had 1 maybe 2 types of mobs per gear set, with those mobs dropping gear mats and full pieces (~1% chance for mats and 0.00x% for full ones) and probably around 5-10 open world bosses with drops across a particular gear tier, on a 24h cd. Epic bosses were mainly farmed for the jewelry cause it gave amazing stats, but outside of that most of them gave you lower tier gear that was somewhat easy to craft. And every 6 months you'd get a few ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 05:49:25
Ah, so there you go. L2's and EQ2's gear pacing were very similar. It's just that one was concentrated on pvp in its design, while the other was more about pve.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 06:19:35
9-10 +weapon, so I guess EQ2 was twice as fast
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 16:33:00
Could you give any example of those "viable things"? Cause again, I see no benefit in me having limited vision.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 17:46:45
But what if they make that pve content as hard as the pvp content right before it? What if the "cage" that the boss is in, and the place that you pvp around for the right to enter, give Intrepid the ability to go all-out on the mechanics? This would still be pvx, because a single encounter has both pvp and pve directly related to it, but the pve would still be hardcore and the pvp would be hardcore as well because the loot would be great. You've said before that this would be bad because all bosses would ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 17:58:46
I'd say that it limits design variety. If you camera is narrow even in tab mode, the devs can't create pve encounters that would require you to constantly monitor your surroundings while also engaging in a fight. A super quick look through a GW2 guide video shows that they have a fairly distant camera coupled with a somewhat close action one, so this has been done before and, from what I know, worked just fine, because people tend to say that GW2 has the best hybrid combat. So I really don't see why Intrepid couldn't either allow for both ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 18:01:29
I mean, the literal same could be said the other way around though. Why not just unlock your house immediately if you're fine with randoes perusing it.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 18:02:23
No.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 18:21:05
Imo options are always better. You want close camera - you got it. You want far camera - you got it. You want to switch between the 2 and is fine with the resulting whiplash - you got it. And we have no real idea how exactly AoC's combat will be designed, cause we've barely seen any finalized combat and we sure as hell know nothing about the classes design. And even if Intrepid do go down a very particular design path, making the camera zoom optional now would just give them a wider spectrum of "where do we ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-15 18:31:18
U2