DPS Meter Megathread

Post by Azherae on 2022-08-20 05:17:54

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So, just to be clear...

"Anyone who supports Noaani in this thread is toxic, doesn't care what Ashes TOS says, and live by the 'we will do what we want' attitude."

Correct?

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-08-20 05:18:28

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Post by Azherae on 2022-08-20 05:20:49

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I'll only ask you this. If all that is true. If Noaani's goal is to just 'get to do whatever and use trackers anyway', and anyone who agrees with Noaani perceives the same thing, willing to just ignore all the rules and do whatever and not care...

Why is it that the 'Noaani side' is even talking? 'We' don't need to do anything. It's in 'our' best interest to let you believe whatever you like and use our 'toxic, rulebreaking elitism' to win.

Is there even the slightest chance that you can comprehend that maybe... this isn't about that?

Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-20 05:22:54

What happens when the 'average' player knows that a competitive opponent has an advantage of this type? I can see that you would be fine 'just losing repeatedly because your opponents use their trackers and you prefer to do it the hard way', but we are not talking about you. We're talking about all the people who 'don't have time or the will to keep being at a disadvantage, but would still like to compete'.

I think I get what you and Mag are saying, that you don't care enough about the higher levels of competition to care if they exist or not, and believe that others don't either. That's fine, I think I just 'prefer that Ashes isn't ruled by those who are willing to have them' on average, and I expect that those who are not willing to have them, but are also not willing to just keep losing, have hard decisions to make.
Imo their main decision would be at the point of choosing whether to even play a game like Ashes. I definitely get your point, but imo it gets absolutely diluted in the overall "issue" of uneven player power in pvp mmos. Which usually is the biggest argument against having owpvp in the first place. There's always gonna be a nerd with more free time than you. There's always gonna be a nerd who delves deeper into the game's mechanics (w/o even considering trackers). There's always gonna be someone who has more friends than you and can bring backup.

All of those things might (and definitely will) push away people who can't handle repetitive defeat. Hardcore players with trackers would just be at the top of that huge pile of potential "casual abuse". But then we could look at Noaani's example of him using trackers in AA, while barely anyone else did. He figured out a more powerful build and was demolishing everyone else around. And iirc some people even avoided fighting him because of that. I've seen the exact same thing happening with powerful players in L2. Except they were more powerful just because they were in a better guild or spent more time powering themselves up. Yes, some people avoided fighting them purely because their reputation preceded them.

But when you look at the overall population of the game there'll always be a pyramid of power. And if the current generation of gamers can't deal with that kind of situation - well, I guess Ashes is doomed. But what else is new. This fact was known literally the moment Steven decided to go with owpvp design, because he himself played game where this pyramid was shining the brightest.

In other words, I really doubt that trackers will impact other players' attitude towards dying in pvp anywhere near as strongly as smth like gear tier or class RPS, or guild size/perks, or pure mechanical skill, or any other factor that I'm forgetting rn. And this is why I consider trackers to be a purely pve thing. Because their influence is seen the most there. Especially if the difference in rewards for clearing dungeons faster will be very tangible.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-08-20 05:30:38

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Post by Mag7spy on 2022-08-20 05:33:57

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-20 05:35:56

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We'd need a GW2 "reporter" to tell us about their situation with trackers. That game has big pvp too, so there'd be that aspect present as well. But I don't remember if we have any hardcore GW2ers here.

Post by Azherae on 2022-08-20 05:38:13

What happens when the 'average' player knows that a competitive opponent has an advantage of this type? I can see that you would be fine 'just losing repeatedly because your opponents use their trackers and you prefer to do it the hard way', but we are not talking about you. We're talking about all the people who 'don't have time or the will to keep being at a disadvantage, but would still like to compete'.

I think I get what you and Mag are saying, that you don't care enough about the higher levels of competition to care if they exist or not, and believe that others don't either. That's fine, I think I just 'prefer that Ashes isn't ruled by those who are willing to have them' on average, and I expect that those who are not willing to have them, but are also not willing to just keep losing, have hard decisions to make.
Imo their main decision would be at the point of choosing whether to even play a game like Ashes. I definitely get your point, but imo it gets absolutely diluted in the overall "issue" of uneven player power in pvp mmos. Which usually is the biggest argument against having owpvp in the first place. There's always gonna be a nerd with more free time than you. There's always gonna be a nerd who delves deeper into the game's mechanics (w/o even considering trackers). There's always gonna be someone who has more friends than you and can bring backup.

All of those things might (and definitely will) push away people who can't handle repetitive defeat. Hardcore players with trackers would just be at the top of that huge pile of potential "casual abuse". But then we could look at Noaani's example of him using trackers in AA, while barely anyone else did. He figured out a more powerful build and was demolishing everyone else around. And iirc some people even avoided fighting him because of that. I've seen the exact same thing happening with powerful players in L2. Except they were more powerful just because they were in a better guild or spent more time powering themselves up. Yes, some people avoided fighting them purely because their reputation preceded them.

But when you look at the overall population of the game there'll always be a pyramid of power. And if the current generation of gamers can't deal with that kind of situation - well, I guess Ashes is doomed. But what else is new. This fact was known literally the moment Steven decided to go with owpvp design, because he himself played game where this pyramid was shining the brightest.

In other words, I really doubt that trackers will impact other players' attitude towards dying in pvp anywhere near as strongly as smth like gear tier or class RPS, or guild size/perks, or pure mechanical skill, or any other factor that I'm forgetting rn. And this is why I consider trackers to be a purely pve thing. Because their influence is seen the most there. Especially if the difference in rewards for clearing dungeons faster will be very tangible.

In a heavy PvP game, sure, but again...

"Stronger Guild'.
"Gear Tier".
"Mechanical Skill".

The first two of those are directly influenced by PvE, that's literally the point of Ashes. The third... well, as I said, fighting games have trackers. Street Fighter's measures literally down to 'Percentage Accuracy using your crouching Medium Kick'. Literally every attack a character has, you can look back at 'how many times you have successfully hit with it in a match', which in turn can lead to 'finding obscure ways to improve or understanding that goes beyond what others have'.

I don't think I will manage to convince you, here, of the levels of technical functionality that people go to, or use... but I've lived through this 'argument' before on the FGC side. At that time it was about 'frame data', then it was about 'visibility/ability to check hitboxes'.

I guess I just don't understand your point, in the end, but I will clarify mine.

"If Intrepid doesn't want people using Trackers to win, they must reduce the effect of knowledge/builds on the outcomes of contests and amount of gear that flows towards players who will inevitably use them."

I care about winning being decided by skill, and I would prefer it to not be 'programming skill'. I don't mind if you don't care about winning. I would still, given that, prefer that the game is both complex enough that I care, and yet not unbalanced toward people who can write Perl parsers or C++ Image Detection code (I use these moreso as my marker for how far back you can go, this does not require modern languages or powerful processing at all).

I only know one way to achieve this.

Assume I never play. I literally just want to WATCH it unfold. I still have the same concern. I 'know' that the one 'winning' most likely is winning because they have the better programmer. Pushing trackers underground guarantees this more because now 'downloads' are not a thing.

I understand that there's a concern that the game environment as a whole, the 'other 80%' will be affected negatively by the existence of the tracker. I believe this doesn't have to be true, that's the only argument being made in the end. To me, I'd be trading a possibly 'fake' benefit (lower toxicity) for a 'real' one (ingame skill mattering most to anyone who aims high).

So one more time for me, is it that you don't think it will have this effect, or that you just don't care what the 'top 10% outcomes' are based on?

I suppose you could also assume that PvP isn't decided by these sorts of things... and that will be the balancer I don't know any games where that's true at the MOMENT, but I don't feel like I could convince you anyway.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-08-20 05:39:09

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Post by Azherae on 2022-08-20 05:43:06

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We'd need a GW2 "reporter" to tell us about their situation with trackers. That game has big pvp too, so there'd be that aspect present as well. But I don't remember if we have any hardcore GW2ers here.

This is incorrect.

I know that Mag NEEDS it to be true. But it is not true.

Smite. Parser.

Street Fighter. Built in Parser.

Paladins (Arena shooter). End of match parser, built in parser.

Monster Hunter, a game that could easily HAVE PvP with minor tweaks, and where fighting the monster is VERY similar to fighting players at the higher ones. Parser.

Parsers are not here to make your mechanical skill better, they are for 'ironing out the glitches in your perception by presenting you with objective data to reference your perceptions against'.

You could end up 'winning' this argument in the stupidest possible way, in fact. "Managing to convince people that instead of looking for a combat log parser, they should be building a frame-data meter and hitbox scanner" because the game favors that more.

Post by Noaani on 2022-08-20 05:44:55

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Post by Azherae on 2022-08-20 05:48:28

Well, any education is good education I guess...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5u87jw/gw2act_an_arcdps_log_parser_plugin_for_advanced/

Post by Noaani on 2022-08-20 05:58:13

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Post by Azherae on 2022-08-20 06:00:07

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This is honestly a completely valid response given your level of understanding of these, so I won't challenge it at all. I just want to ask one thing therefore.

Do you believe that it is difficult to make and distribute a parser that wouldn't be detectable enough to result in a ban? Once again, bearing in mind that you're talking about 'me' or 'Noaani' doing it, in this case. Not the average person. I agree that there could be a reduction in 'people with trackers or parsers' if the TOS was against it and the game did not provide it.

But that would be 'us arguing so that other people could have parsers', not 'us'. 'We' could have them anyway. Unless you believe that there is any chance whatsoever of 'actually being banned' from the sort of people here making the argument based on actual detection of a parser/tracker being used .

Sorry if I mangled the question.

"Do you believe that custom trackers are detectable enough that a programmer will have to worry about running one?"

It SEEMS that you just think it would slow or prevent distribution, which would be a positive effect in your perception, and I can't argue with that at all. You see it as positive and I see it as negative, and I think it's probably subjective at that point.

Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-20 06:03:26

"If Intrepid doesn't want people using Trackers to win, they must reduce the effect of knowledge/builds on the outcomes of contests and amount of gear that flows towards players who will inevitably use them."
Yes, we agree here. I personally want a very tight gear balancing, where even if you're a gear tier above me, I could still beat you, especially if RPS supports it. And the skill lvl can contribute the rest. If that lvl comes from studying parsers for weeks on end - I personally don't see any issue with that, because that's the same as a person just playing more (arguably they literally are, if they're spending time on game's parsers).

If the game is designed in such a way that there's a single build that can demolish anyone and everyone in pvp - Intrepid would've failed in their development, no matter if the build requires you to spend 10k hours reading a parser or just 10k hours of bashing your head against other people and seeing what works or doesn't.
I understand that there's a concern that the game environment as a whole, the 'other 80%' will be affected negatively by the existence of the tracker. I believe this doesn't have to be true, that's the only argument being made in the end. To me, I'd be trading a possibly 'fake' benefit (lower toxicity) for a 'real' one (ingame skill mattering most to anyone who aims high).

So one more time for me, is it that you don't think it will have this effect, or that you just don't care what the 'top 10% outcomes' are based on?
I mainly don't care where those outcomes come from. To me it is literally the same, because both things are just people spending time on the game, with one person spending more of it or having a different approach.

I, as a person who never used trackers, wouldn't know how easy it is to "properly" use a tracker. Could a completely casual person just look at a tracker and go "oh yeah, I need to do this instead of this and this point in the fight"? Because if it's not as obvious as that - I see no point in having them in the game. They wouldn't all of a sudden level out the playing field. The casuals would still need help from other people to understand the trackers, which would be the same as just them coming to a better player and asking that player to teach them how to play better (I've done this in L2 several times).

And if it is that dumb-easy to understand what is the best possible build and course of actions in any given situation - then where's the "skill" then? Is it purely mechanical at that point? Cause if it is - we're back to the "there's always someone who's better so nothing will help you just suddenly win against them" situation. No matter how much info the tracker gives you, if the person can't execute all the stuff that info says you gotta execute - the info is pointless imo (to said person).

And as Noaani likes to say, even if there isn't a tracker for the game - there will be a tracker for the game. So anyone who does understand how to get the maximum benefit out of them can just go and get themselves that tracker. And to me, their very little "difficulty" of "I need to go to a 3rd party site instead of just the game" would be equal to my bigger difficulty of "I'll just bash my head against the combat logs until I understand what I need to do". And both of those actions would make us stronger than a casual pvper who just doesn't care about any of that shit at all. And when that pvper dies to either of us, it'll be on them to decide whether they can keep dying until they understand what to do better, whether they need to find help to understand how to win, or whether they just want to leave the game because a better player killed them.

Post by Azherae on 2022-08-20 06:12:41

"If Intrepid doesn't want people using Trackers to win, they must reduce the effect of knowledge/builds on the outcomes of contests and amount of gear that flows towards players who will inevitably use them."
Yes, we agree here. I personally want a very tight gear balancing, where even if you're a gear tier above me, I could still beat you, especially if RPS supports it. And the skill lvl can contribute the rest. If that lvl comes from studying parsers for weeks on end - I personally don't see any issue with that, because that's the same as a person just playing more (arguably they literally are, if they're spending time on game's parsers).

If the game is designed in such a way that there's a single build that can demolish anyone and everyone in pvp - Intrepid would've failed in their development, no matter if the build requires you to spend 10k hours reading a parser or just 10k hours of bashing your head against other people and seeing what works or doesn't.
I understand that there's a concern that the game environment as a whole, the 'other 80%' will be affected negatively by the existence of the tracker. I believe this doesn't have to be true, that's the only argument being made in the end. To me, I'd be trading a possibly 'fake' benefit (lower toxicity) for a 'real' one (ingame skill mattering most to anyone who aims high).

So one more time for me, is it that you don't think it will have this effect, or that you just don't care what the 'top 10% outcomes' are based on?
I mainly don't care where those outcomes come from. To me it is literally the same, because both things are just people spending time on the game, with one person spending more of it or having a different approach.

I, as a person who never used trackers, wouldn't know how easy it is to "properly" use a tracker. Could a completely casual person just look at a tracker and go "oh yeah, I need to do this instead of this and this point in the fight"? Because if it's not as obvious as that - I see no point in having them in the game. They wouldn't all of a sudden level out the playing field. The casuals would still need help from other people to understand the trackers, which would be the same as just them coming to a better player and asking that player to teach them how to play better (I've done this in L2 several times).

And if it is that dumb-easy to understand what is the best possible build and course of actions in any given situation - then where's the "skill" then? Is it purely mechanical at that point? Cause if it is - we're back to the "there's always someone who's better so nothing will help you just suddenly win against them" situation. No matter how much info the tracker gives you, if the person can't execute all the stuff that info says you gotta execute - the info is pointless imo (to said person).

And as Noaani likes to say, even if there isn't a tracker for the game - there will be a tracker for the game. So anyone who does understand how to get the maximum benefit out of them can just go and get themselves that tracker. And to me, their very little "difficulty" of "I need to go to a 3rd party site instead of just the game" would be equal to my bigger difficulty of "I'll just bash my head against the combat logs until I understand what I need to do". And both of those actions would make us stronger than a casual pvper who just doesn't care about any of that shit at all. And when that pvper dies to either of us, it'll be on them to decide whether they can keep dying until they understand what to do better, whether they need to find help to understand how to win, or whether they just want to leave the game because a better player killed them.

Ah, well, I can understand that. I feel like it's a less common perspective, but I don't really know that at all.

I won't bore you with 'the effectiveness level of a tracker or a hitbox scanner'. Your perspective is definitely in a realm that I personally would not have expected someone to want to see in Ashes, but I definitely believe you genuinely hold it and don't misunderstand anything.

You're more or less right, after all, I think that the real difference is, in 'my world' (Fighting Games specifically), you are 'the casual', and I wasn't thinking of it that way before. Definitely don't take that as a slight, it just is what it is and I couldn't 'see it' that way before.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-08-20 06:15:27

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Post by Noaani on 2022-08-20 06:16:48

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-20 06:18:05

You're more or less right, after all, I think that the real difference is, in 'my world' (Fighting Games specifically), you are 'the casual', and I wasn't thinking of it that way before. Definitely don't take that as a slight, it just is what it is and I couldn't 'see it' that way before.
Oh, for sure. The only hardcore thing about me is my ability to be so stupidly stubborn to never use better tools to achieve my goal, while still achieving my goal :D In all other aspects I'm casual as hell.

Post by Azherae on 2022-08-20 06:19:35

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To the uninitiated (I believe people do still read this thread when we manage to keep things short):

BDO allows you to make money while AFK. It's not the best, but it's something. Despite not having a trade system between players, it allows a guild to use the 'free slots' in the Guild for additional accounts, which can then be used to do Guild Missions for Guild Funds, with their higher Processing or Cooking skills which are built up via this afk activity.

BDO also rewards the player for simply being online by granting you materials which are gathered by 'workers' who have only small upkeep requirements. "Passive Income" they like to call it. The more accounts you have, the more Workers you have, the more materials, the more Guild Funds and Guild EXP.

Noaani is correct.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-08-20 06:39:48

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Post by Azherae on 2022-08-20 06:49:40

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Some of us have second computers, or in my case, second Consoles. Second accounts here refers to multiboxing.

I effectively did the thing I just said TODAY. That's why it was the first example that came to mind. It's not even the meaningful or good example.

So, one more time...

Just because you don't do something doesn't mean other people don't do it.

I respect your Lawful Evil ways, but remember that Chaotic Neutral exists.

Anyways, as always I am glad that you have given me a random chance to educate people through your own insistence on these claims.

BDO also has an 'Energy' system, which, for certain guild missions, lifeskills, etc, actually causes the Energy stat to run out. Most lifeskills that actually require this stat are more profitable by extension (who would burn Energy to make the same or less money?).

Energy recharges over time. When you run out, switch to new character on same account. When you run out the energy on ALL the characters on that account? (Remember, we're Hardcore here, you can run it down in an hour just doing the average stuff)

Use the other account.

Today was 'gather 3000 Milk'. Each cow costs 10 energy to milk once for 20-40. SafeZone with lots of cows. No danger at all. 50,000,000 Guild funds.41 minutes. Easy.

Please continue to give me opportunities to gripe about how bad BDO is, or anything at all really. I will practice 'discrediting your claims' with less words as we go. I get the feeling I'm going to need the skill at quite a high level as things progress.

Post by Noaani on 2022-08-20 06:51:46

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Post by Mag7spy on 2022-08-20 07:14:17

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Post by Azherae on 2022-08-20 07:19:10

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I believe at this point you have 'won'. I am, in fact, unwilling to go more than 3 'lies' deep with you. I will put no further strain on your reality, I think you're two levels of dissonance deep as it is.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-08-20 07:39:05

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Post by Songcaller on 2022-08-20 09:28:02

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Post by Dizz on 2022-08-20 09:44:27

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Post by Noaani on 2022-08-20 09:59:34

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Post by Noaani on 2022-08-20 10:04:09

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