We need PVE servers here's why

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Especially when like 50% of the people will definitely go 'yes that is a great idea do that!'

Way more than 50%, which will usually then snowball into bigger asks. But I get your point.

L2 had an "anti-chaos character" buff where PKers couldn't attack the person with the buff. That buff was given out by an npc in any town for free. But that's just another anti-PK system rather than an anti-PvP one.

Also, considering the "sub-40 no pvp" thing. In your opinion, how should artisanal levels correlate with the adventure lvl, if at all? Cause I could see that as a huge potential hole, if a sub-40 dude could be a top lvl artisan and just go around picking up super rare resources w/o anyone being able to stop him. Yes, the mobs would be a factor, but there's way too many variables there. Also, if you have such a dude in your high lvl party, he'd be the resource vacuum and would never lose them due to PK. I'd definitely use this system in such a way if it allowed me to.

But that's not a completely valid argument either, that's just 'the ability to prevent your Artisan from getting PKed at World Bosses'. Meaningful, but not overwhelming since if owPvP is gone, you can't have that issue anyway. Basically, this only applies to high level gatherers. But 'low level gatherers' who just want to 'play to relax' are exactly the sort of people that make easy targets, so to them, 'preventing them from being able to relax and enjoy the game so that some top level player can be subject to being killed by a different top level player'... what benefit is that? Again, I would use gathering as my big argument point, if it were up to me, but I wouldn't count on it, because it's so much easier to solve this by putting high level gatherables behind strong mobs.

Everything that can be viewed as an 'exploit' can also be viewed as a perfectly legitimate and often 'expected option' from the casual player, which is the problem.

And in case you forgot, Freeholds are safe zones as of last check. You can do this now if you have people willing to just bring the resources to you. That's why I say that there are a lot of oddly contradictory offerings here. There are so many ways to avoid PvP 'problems' now for those who aim to do so, that only fail to help the exact people who would be complaining, that changing it is just 'extending an olive branch to those people'.

As I said, I need to recheck some systems, it's just that we've never seemingly got this far before in this sort of discussion (that I've seen) because these always devolve into what we were heading for a page or two ago, long before they get to the point of 'wait does this even work?'

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Azherae is not arguing against it, she's trying to see a deeper point that makes this kind of system truly required. This is just a discussion that's trying to get to a deeper point than just throwing around opinions or preferences, yet most people here are just trying to attack each other's dick size. Both discussions are ultimately pointless, but one at least brings deeper understanding of the mechanics/features and reasonings behind them, while the other literally provides no benefit to any of the sides of said discussion.

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Yes, so I ask... why?

At this point, (and note, I AGREE) you're saying 'I would rather that people who would make these types of characters be forced to fight instead even though they don't want to, or leave'.

This is fine. What I want is beyond that. I want them to want to fight. I want them to want to learn to fight. I want Ashes to be the game that teaches some of those players 'PvP is fun'. But let's assume that for right now, nothing is implemented to make that aspect more likely.

From the other side, you're saying something interestingly different by default. "The point of owPvP is to make it so that a level 34 gathering can just be killed whenever in order to maintain some form of economic/power balance."

Again, I agree. But you can probably see why, especially when talking to someone who isn't as interested in this prospect, the only reactions we've managed to come up with, as a community, basically so far, are:

"Ashes might not be for you."

and

"There will be winners and losers."

Most people who come in here asking for PvE are not JUST going 'I don't want to fight', they're scared that the greatest game they've seen proposed in years might die/be super niche because it unapologetically contains a mechanic that is now a strong negative for the dwindling MMO population (and yes I have data for this but it's not massaged because you can't be SURE about everyone, sentiment is a score).

We haven't offered a single actual backing to 'Well try it maybe you'll like it'. Now, that's not on us, we can't do that yet because we haven't seen the combat/escape options. But focusing on what I'm saying here, if you tell people 'You still have to learn to fight in order to defend your node, to defend your guild, to move your goods around', some will go 'I will play but not do any of that' and some will go 'I will learn to do that later when I've become comfortable with the game'.

If our only answer to someone that asks 'Well what if Azherae's gang decides to just murder me while gathering when I haven't made any strong friends yet', is 'Someone will punish them' or 'well you should make friends faster', I see this being about as effective as New World's Alpha.

You don't think there's a massive number of crazy sadists out there who will pay $15 a month (maybe just ONCE even) just to kill newbies and laugh about it? Or are we expecting the newbies to not only run the gauntlet/join late but also become consistent fodder for all those sadists who now have lots of PvP practice?

The only thing protecting the Hardcore PvP MMOs from this sort of thing is that those people are often actually weak players who get bored once they've chased off all their prey and everyone left is an actual fight, then they leave too and the only remaining people are people like us.

The thing I want is for Intrepid to make the game so that only the most PvE person possible even thinks "I'll just stay here at level 34, I don't want to learn to fight." I want everyone else to go 'ok I think I know how to do this, time to level to 36 and give it a try'. If that's not achievable, then I don't have much reason to have faith in the vision of this game anyway.

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Actually a different take on this.

"That suggestion would be pretty game-breaking."

What is 'the game' it is breaking? I will definitely give you gathering, as noted before, this is our strongest argument right now.
What else is it 'breaking'? Because the only thing I see is 'other people are supposed to be able to kill you'. The underlying reason for this is still unclear (again, I'm giving the Gathering point). Why EXACTLY are other people supposed to be able to kill you? Why is that 'the game' other than the fact that 'Steven said so' and 'us PvP-ers want people to fight'?

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And both me and Azherae want pvp to remain in the game. And not only remain, but be encouraged in such a way where the most amount of people will enjoy it. And Azherae was trying to understand what would change, if pvp was disabled around lower lvls, because having it disabled there might ease way more people into enjoying it at higher lvls. But so far the true reason behind this design is "just cause I wanna 4Head".

Any idea can only become its best self after you've tried any and all ways to counter it and it still stands up as a good idea. The only reason I'm even interested in Ashes is exactly because it has this pvp system across all lvls. But at its core, even L2's system existed just because it did. And I personally loved it. And I know several thousand people that did so as well. But you know what I also know? That millions of people loved when there was no pvp. And if Ashes wants to be successful, it gotta find a way to be appealing to people who might not be as ok with pvp, while not sacrificing the pvp entirely. And knowing/understanding the real root of the pvp design might give us a good clue as to how we can appeal to the pvp-dislikers w/o removing pvp completely.

Just saying "it's there cause I wanted so" doesn't help us, no matter how much I'd love it to.

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I think you're almost getting it now, so I'll springboard off you.

We got to 'well people will just have Alts you can't attack'.

But we also have 'The Corruption system will deter attacking'.

Why wouldn't you just make an Alt that is much lower level and go with a friend? The Alt gathers the materials, or holds them. If you the 'rival' kill this low level Alt to get the mats... now you are red. Very red.

There is no situation I can see in which you 'get very red for killing lowbies' to the point where you should think twice about doing it, AND where other people won't use low level Bait Alts to gather with since Artisanship isn't part of level.

I'm taking bets on how long it takes before we see such a character named Karmabomb.

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You do understand that Artisan skill is completely unrelated to Adventuring level, right?

You can be a level 1 Master Gatherer in this game.

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Why would I care for other nodes, when I have either limited time to do my own things (cause I'm time casual which is why I'm playing on a pve server) or I don't want to unnecessarily pvp. Singing up for another node's siege is just you spending time on pvp that has 0 relation to your own needs. I'd assume most people that go to PvE server don't waste their time on such things. Obviously you would because you enjoy pvp, just in limited amounts, but I'm talking about most people. If anyone has any kind of stats/info on why my assumption is wrong, I'd love to see it, cause it'd mean that a properly designed pvp system could attract all those people w/o making a PvE server.

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Do you have a link to that? I tried looking it up on the wiki real quick and didn't find it.

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As I said in the post, the biggest feature of the game is Nodes. Nodes' changes are based off of competition, even if sometimes indirect. You can't build up one node w/o destroying (or letting it get decayed) another node. Cooperation will build up the first wave of nodes and leave them as such, because destroying some Node would lead to the destruction of their homes, investments (mainly in-node housing) and resources. That doesn't sound all that cooperative to me.

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Simple protection. I've led lvl56 summoners in L2 into veeery deep rooms in different dungeons. Didn't really have any problems.

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Genuinely sorry here, George, I didn't realize you had jumped in at the spot you did.

The hypothetical, if you care, was 'what if PvP only starts at level 35' (or some arbitrary lower level than that). The problem posed was 'we'll see a bunch of guildless level 35 alts'. Presumably because they could just not be PvPed while doing... something of importance, I assume gathering, but could also just be 'healing someone randomly'.

My point was 'if you are worried about level 35 alts being unattackable, why aren't you worried about level 10 Alts who you don't want to attack because Corruption?'

Just ignore me if you don't care about this.