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Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 00:11:58
I'm literally gonna be one of those players. I have all the time in the day every day to play the game and planning on playing it all that time. I'm gonna be making alts and leveling them and all of that. And I want those professions to take as long as possible. And for resources to be as rare as possible, so that I couldn't just "be self-sufficient" just because I have more time than others. Taking almost a year to have 3 chars that can craft a thing on one chain of the overall artisan system is ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 00:14:35
Yes, and you need the gatherables to even start using your processers and crafters. Which was my point. Yes, your gatherer will be well-geared, but are you sure that you'll be able to fight against several people who work together while you yourself are solo? Because I'm fairly sure that any high lvl/value gatherer will have protection with him, because that gatherer will be in a guild or just in a group of people who leveled different artisans and now support their gatherer so that solo players like you can't do shit to him.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 00:26:43
Then why waste time on leveling several alts when you can cooperate with your guildmates and achieve the same goal much much faster? And if you're assuming that all the other time-hardcore players will also be in guilds, then how would them having artisan alts be any different from them just working together with their mates?
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 00:44:34
Yeah, and this would require twice the investment into the guild. But even if this didn't require an alt and was just available on your main, there's still a limited amount of resources in the open world, so it's not like if your whole guild has top lvl gathering that you'd suddenly be able to gather more stuff. And if people use their alts to gather during off hours, that only means that there's fewer protectors around to defend them from other guilds whose primetime is different from your guild's.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 02:18:07
The whole point of having owpvp is to have people compete for the limited resources. If the game had enough resources for 10k people pvp would be pointless. So no, I highly doubt that there'll be enough resources for 10k people. And at top lvls of gathering I doubt there'd be enough resources for even 100 people. Intrepid might prove me wrong, but, considering all of the planned design so far, I somehow doubt that.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 02:53:30
I'm not arguing that it isn't useful, I'm arguing that it won't be as impactful as you're making it out to be. Yes, the people who have more time on their hands will gather more resources than those who don't have the time for it. Alternatively the people with time could just make money and buy the same resources, cause farming them directly might take more time than making money to buy them.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 03:03:01
Can you give an example of how it could effect single-char players? I might be missing smth, but I can't come up with this system being any different from the current one, in the context of someone just having one char that they PK on. Nothing really stopped them, which is why I like the stat dampening change Steven implemented and why I suggested to have an account-wide PK counter, so that those PKers couldn't just evade the punishment for genociding lowbies by doing said genocide on their alt instead of main. And again, I mainly see this as ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 03:22:02
Hmm, I didn't consider that assumption. If anything I'd assume that a lot of carebears would only be happy if PKers were punished across all chars, while normal pvpers who don't really PK all that much (especially on multiple chars) wouldn't care about that at all.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 03:40:56
As I see it, it's to let people have certain reputation on certain chars. Players are supposed to have their own stalls and sell their services to others, be it crafting or processing. If players start to do everything that kind of reputation gets diluted and if you can't setup several stalls from your alts (I'd expect that you can't) then in the current system your "account" would be mainly known for just one thing. And then if you wanted to change that reputation, you'd be able to just switch your stall from your main to your alt. The ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 03:46:24
Nahhhh, that is the exact moment where we hit those dicks with the classic "This game is not for you". Corruption's stat dampening kinda already points to the game not appealing to complete murderhobos. My suggestion just applies that design goal to anyone who'd try to exploit the system by just genociding on their alts. We've already seen 2 big changes to the pvp/pve balance with the open seas and ruins mechanics. As much as the carebearish part of the community has complained about those 2, I feel like some murderhobos complaining about my suggestion would bring some balance ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 04:07:21
F that! Ironman mode servers! (but with trading) Though I feel like we'd see way more of "having accounts is p2w" posts
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 04:35:24
And create another problem. That is, potentially increasing the amount of housing by 8+ times. The world already had to be increased to accommodate 10k citizens. If alts could get separate housing and freeholds the game would have to support around 80k freeholds (or more if we'll have more than 8 char slots).
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 04:39:22
As you said, this is a subjective problem. What looks good to you might look like trash to others. Intrepid chose to have a sub+cosmetics monetization method and designed the game around that, so it'd be too late to change that at this point. Oh, and they'd have to delete all the previous cosmetics too, which would just lead to a class action lawsuit against them.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 04:51:07
Again though, how exactly would they control that in any way? They can't really control what people like. They claim that in-game stuff will look as good as shop stuff, if not better, but ultimately the players will decide what they like more.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 04:58:03
It's not about solo players though. Freeholds will already be a mechanic for people in guilds or groups because there's a limited amount of freeholds you can get and they'll be going up in prices with each new purchase. If alts are allowed to have freeholds, rich guilds will just pump money into alts and get all the freeholds they can (which will always be more than solos can get). With 1-per-account this action is at least limited by money. Obviously anyone who wants to do it and has the money for it will do it, but there'll still ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 05:05:25
Lore-wise there doesn't supposed to be any visual progression because we're preestablished people who're just moving into a new location. We're not just noname peasants getting born here. Players could always just shit on anyone who has a store-bought cosmetic instead of an earned one. It's toxic as hell and wouldn't really change anything, but it might deter some people from wearing them.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 05:10:47
Depending on the size of the node and the guild, yes. But again, there's a difference between a 100-member guilds having 100 freeholds and that same 100-member guild having upwards of 800 freeholds. Intrepid would have to either account for that possibility (which I already mentioned) or they'd have a shitton of homeless solo players on their hands. Also, freeholds are meant to be a part of your citizenship and you're meant to have only one citizenship per account. So this would have to get changed too if alts could have their own freeholds. And then you have even ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 05:26:27
I was just double-checking that and the phrasing of the only quote on this issue is real weird for me so I don't really know. It sounds like your alts are homeless if your main has a citizenship, but then your alts are supposedly able to use the freehold so I'd assume the citizenship applies to them too. I hope the citizenship applies to the whole account and not just to one char.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 05:31:49
They could implement some kind of indicator on the player's nameplate (that's gonna be the "inspection" alternative), but I feel like they won't exactly because of the things I mentioned. The toxicity would be way higher than if players had to know which cosmetics were store-bought.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 08:33:16
Well yeah, I get that part, what I'm confused about is whether all 3 characters are considered citizens of the node or whether it's just one of them. The phrasing of the second part of the quote seems to indicate that only one of those 3 characters is a citizen. And if that is the case then there will definitely be way more socializing between live people, because nodes seem to provide a ton of benefits to their citizens so pretty much any alt character will have fewer options when it comes to particular game mechanics.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 09:06:26
Yeah, and that's exactly where my confusion comes from. It could mean that you just can't have 2 citizenships on one account, but it's still just one character that's a citizen and everyone else is a nomad, or it's "your whole account is a citizen of whichever node you choose". Hope someone asks this for the monthly stream.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 09:10:25
Well, in the current system you'd just be able to remove that PK tick through the removal quest, while in my suggestion you wouldn't be able to do that because it was a kill on your nodemate. And if you happen to make a few of such kills, any of your future kills would immediately put you at higher corruption values. And the only way to remove those PK ticks would be to change node citizenships, which could be a huge loss for the player. Though the discussion about node citizenship from another thread makes me think that your ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 19:29:13
Right, I forgot that one account can be on multiple servers. Yeah, the intention was for this system to apply to alts on one server.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 20:24:43
Not really. All that it takes is proper balancing of corruption gained per kill related to the current PK count. The first 5-10 kills might be cleanseable within just a few minutes so most people would be fine PKing a bit here and there, while BHs that are near can still catch them if they're quick. Kills over 10 PK ticks should take 5-10 minutes to cleanse and now pretty much any BH will hunt you down, unless you're in a group which is ready to go Red for you too. Make the counter clearing quest just hard enough ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 20:31:41
We have no clue how long/difficult the current quest is. My suggestion might be way easier than what they currently have planned. I just suggested making it a "give back to the community" quest rather than "I just do this and get the benefit of cleansing myself w/o anyone else seeing that benefit". And my first suggestion is targeted at the same "exploit" as the corruption stat dampening change from L2's system. So no, this is not some new exploit that I discovered that Intrepid didn't know about. I just prefer it to curb the dicks, who'd use alts ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 21:10:54
It only effects those who'd go PKing on alts in huge amounts. And considering that usually alts are reserved for additional professions or "to just chill", the majority of people wouldn't even care that their PK counter is account-wide. While all the dicks who'd want to kill lowbies on their newly made alt would get fucked over. As others here said, this is a commonly seen practice so I'd imagine Steven and Intrepid are well aware of it. They might've even thought up a better way to address it or, alternatively, they think it's completely fine, in which case ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 21:21:03
Just to support that bit of data from a game with free trading. On a ton of L2's private servers people would usually try to be as self-sufficient as possible, because those servers would usually have higher lvling rates so making a gatherer alt was easy (even several at different lvl points). And because of that the game's market would either be barren or the prices on items would be so damn high that no casual/non-guild player could ever farm that much in a reasonable amount of time. And at the opposite side of the spectrum, on low rate ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 21:38:48
And that's the balance that we'll have to figure out during alpha2. The quest should be quite hard, but you should be able to get a fair few PKs in-between repetitions of that quest. I personally think that ~10-15 PKs should be fine, if the quest requires you to spend ~3h and a chunk of your money to cleanse your whole PK counter. Mb 3h is even a bit on the shorter side, but again, that'll have to be tested.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 21:44:19
And compared to your main, were those alts doing more content or less? Cause in my experience people usually do much less on their alts than on their main chars, unless they completely switched between them. And if there were any concrete numbers on this topic I'd love to see them myself, but I'm not sure if anyone has done even semi-scientific studies on what people do on their mmo alts when compared to their main chars. Their victims can always flag up and give up less stuff. Or they could give their attackers corruption until that gank group ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-18 21:50:28
This brings more rebalancing for other classes though. What if the class that you gave an additional silence to is now stronger against the class that was meant to counter it? Do you now buff the latter one too? And if you do it might become stronger against its own counter, and so on and so on. I personally prefer giving people non-class tools to counter an OP class. L2 had a problem with a class that had a mass stun ability on super short cd. In the next few patches the devs introduced an upgrade to the most ...