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Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 03:56:55
Aren't these two contradictory though? As for that situation, I'd probably prefer some, at least, small threshold of threat for those CCs to work. Maybe even a dmg threshold requirement. Cause it would mean that the 3rd party was present near the boss for some time and even made some aggressive actions (I'd prefer if those counted towards threat even if they were aimed at other players, I wrote out my idea in the Guild Bombing thread). And if the OG raid didn't address their competitors in any way - that's on them. But yeah, letting anyone just CC ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 04:01:47
So I think my line of thinking falls under this even if Ashes has both. I want people to be able to influence other people's gameplay. And people seem to hate that quite a lot. In other words, I'm way too niche to succeed with my designs
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 04:28:52
Yep, if the OG farming party is weak enough in their tanking abilities to require a flagged state - they should be ready to engage any incoming party that's willing to fight them over the boss/content. This also has a secondary function of reducing the drop rate on death in case the boss kills them. The additional green would have to be off-party, off-guild and off-raid, so they'd need to be constantly watched over and cared for, so that's another small addition to the overall complexity of the situation (though obviously a really small one). As for the example ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 04:33:05
Steven dumped around $50mil of his own money (iirc) already and from what he said in the last stream, they've made, at the very least, $25mil from alpha2 alone. And that's not counting all the alpha1 purchases and any potential cosmetics sales over the years. And he's ready to pay more if the development stretches out for longer. In other words, at the very worst they'd be riiight at the end of their money (not really, cause they didn't start with 100+ employees).
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 06:28:54
In your opinion, what do you think these 2 positions imply? Is it "go program a mob to hit a player" or is it "think of a way to present our game in the best way possible"? I know that Margaret does an unreasonable amount of work at Intrepid. Her saying "this is a cosmetic I designed" on pretty much every single dev stream is proof of that. But if her job title includes words like "marketing" and "communications", I'd assume that her main goal at the company should be to present Intrepid and Ashes to their potential target ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 06:35:22
Yep, I was thinking along these lines. And with additional abilities to transfer/remove aggro, the og farming party would have the tools to alleviate their burden a bit and be better prepared for the fight. The boss' anti-zerg mechanics could also concentrate on the outer parts of its zone, so the newcomers would always get hit first, while the og group could maneuver under the boss and reposition themselves for a better fight. In other words, there are ways to design this in not the worst way possible, considering the owpvx goal.
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 06:45:08
And what if the tank itself has to move more and react to boss actions rather than just sit on its rotation and keep taunting? What if the tank needs to cast abilities on his mates to protect them when the boss reaggros? Would you find this boring too?
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 07:04:00
But why not combine the two? Make the gameplay more interesting by changing things up and making mobs/bosses attack other players as well, while making the whole process more skill-requiring from the tank. If the tank wants to keep the aggro on him, he should not only do a good rotation but also protect his mates, which in turn helps him to sustain aggro. This would be the threat management that still mostly holds it on the tank, but just requires more from the tank. And, obviously, all the mates can just unload on the boss and do their ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 07:07:19
They want to run them through the beta and then make it the pts iirc.
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 07:19:26
If the tank has a massive advantage on threat gen, the game just becomes the classic "stand in one place and taunt everything that moves, while the others are just doing dmg/healing". Which is boring and the reason why some people want the system to be better.
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 07:44:18
And all of this would still be true with what I'm saying. And I want even more mechanics Having the boss and adds stay on the tank at most (if not all) times seems boring to me. Obviously all the other mechanics would remain, but tank could still be doing more or at least doing different stuff than just keeping aggro with taunt skills.
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 07:54:46
The forcefield from the showcase provides another style of gameplay. Instead of just taunting the mobs, the tank can protect others by absorbing the damage meant for them. Mob/boss atks could be treated as action/projectile-based and the tank would have to move to the aggroed partymate and protect them with abilities similar to that forcefield. And I'm talking about a purely tank-related feature that has pretty much nothing to do with dps or whatever they're doing. Like, literally nothing has to change for any other class. The boss would just lose aggro more often and the tank would have ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 07:55:54
You seemed like a reasonable person before. I guess my assumption was wrong. You comments lately come off way too trolly and pointless.
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 08:08:01
That's why I think tanks should have a "link" with the boss that would tell them the next target of aggro (not purely threat-based), with maybe a second or two to react. The tank would need to communicate with the rest of the party and the dps could adjust to the movement of the boss. In other words, I just want something new rather than holding the boss in one place and waiting till dps do their job. I'm also thinking about it from the tank's perspective because I'm gonna be a tank and I want this kind of ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 08:34:04
Like I said, the mechanics would still be all the classics from other games. The tank would just have a single other method of upholding the threat - protecting others through actions that are not just "cast a defense buff on them". There already are similar mechanics in different games (I think FF14 has that tank dome iirc), I just want them to be more frequent than just a one- or two-off thing during an entire raid.
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 09:04:00
It's the "you either choose some buffs for your guild or increase the amount of members". I think they mean that feature.
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 09:58:25
Yeah, I'm sure that they'd rather have done it on the first try. But unexpected circumstances come against those unseen costs and instead of just spending a few hours properly prepping the showcase they not only failed to record the first video several times, not only delayed the stream by several hours (which diminishes the immediate reach of the stream), but they then had to waste even more time fixing the bad video to make something more presentable. And I feel like this could've been avoided if at least some parts of the showcase were properly planned. At the ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-31 12:25:42
Yeah, I disagree with the harshness of some people's words too. I might somewhat understand their general frustration, cause several points of feedback have been brought up in the past but they weren't listened to (not saying that Intrepid have to do literally everything they're told to do), so the same people now feel justified in their harshness, because their feedback kinda proved to be "correct". But my main point has been exactly what you've said. We know for certain that Intrepid can do better, so it's difficult to accept that they could mess it up after all this ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 03:11:08
Dunno about L1, but L2 was just a bit easier, especially on the first few lvls. But later on soloing mobs of the same lvl could be a roughly 50/50 chance. At least when I was checking a thing for this forum, I needed to lvl up my char a bit and died twice to mobs on lvl6 I was a mage and was trying to kite them, but they could still catch up and their every hit did ~1/3-1/2 of my hp while I had to hit them 4 times. And that's not counting mob crits
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 03:52:06
I mean, we'll literally have 5-party raids in the game. And Intrepid intend to make the "one of each" party composition to be at least somewhat optimal, so there's a high chance that those parties will each have a tank. So what do those 4 remaining tanks do during the fight if only one tank can be truly involved with the boss. It's not like a tank is good at dps and I definitely don't fucking want full raid bosses to be CCable. And as Nerror said, just controlling adds is shite. So what do you suggest those tanks ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 04:15:02
Options on options with even more options. Do it all and let us decide. I'd assume UI development takes less than programming or vfx/environmental design, so it should be doable w/o prolonging the game's development by too much.
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 08:07:16
That's the point of an option after all. If Intrepid decide to cave in and give people an in-game dps meter - so be it.
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 08:19:37
Or completely change the main gameplay loop of a tank, as I've been promoting for the past several days The abilities like that forcefield from the showcase indicate that we might get that kind of gameplay in Ashes. And if raids are designed with such abilities in mind, those 4 tanks could properly support the raid through tanking. It just wouldn't quite be the super classic form of tanking.
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 08:22:57
What if the tank could instead prevent their partymates from taking damage by standing between the boss and the target? That would still be tanking, that would still serve the same goal of absorbing the dmg that could kill others, that would still support a tanky build on your character - but it wouldn't just rely on threat mechanics.
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 08:32:51
I mean, a ton of top lvl content will already be happening in dungeons, so there's your enclosed limited spaces. And giving tank a buff or a synergistic mechanic that works off of the number of "protects" you did. So the tank would not only simply tank in the party, but would also support the dps or healing or whatever. And it could be skill-based, if Intrepid add enough varying protective abilities and proper mob/boss mechanics to utilize them. I just think that tank can be made more interesting, even outside of the basic boss mechanics of "dodge this ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 08:36:21
What is the core goal of a tank? Is it not to redirect incoming damage from its mates onto itself? And if the bard had that kind of ability, yes I'd see it as a tank ability on a bard which would effectively let the bard to tank damage. As Azherae said in a few different threads, FF11 kinda did this already by people just playing in a way where particular builds could serve as "tanks" during farming. So it's not like I'm suggesting something completely revolutionary and never done before. I'd just like to see a game designed ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 09:38:45
That's why I didn't call them tanks directly. I said that it's a tank ability on a non-tank class that allows that class to play the role of a tank (at least to some extent). And I'd definitely like if the bard or even the healer had a similar ability which would also synergize with some of the tank's abilities. To me it's about how much of that role you fill. A mage that does a shitton of damage and keeps permanent threat because of it can be "a tank", if it has enough hp/def to sustain incoming dmg. ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 09:43:13
Environmental hazards within the maximum range of rangers and mages + directional boss aoes = people needing a protection from that dmg. Currently most games would just give you a small spot to stand on where the hazards won't appear or where the boss won't hit. But what if on top of that the tank could also just provide a protection for the person standing "in the red". Obviously this would have to be properly balanced with CDs and protective strengths, so that tanks wouldn't just permaprotect some dps who'd constantly put out 100% of their power, but still. ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 10:01:08
But Ashes will have augments that will blur the lines between archetypes, so it won't be as strict as EQ. We've already seen that you can move with attacks, so it's not like the classes with a more limited range couldn't just keep up. That movement would be part of the skill requirement for max dps output. And backstabbing control could fall under the broader aggro control mechanics. You mentioned in one of the threads that EQ had items that moved you on the threat list and tank ability that moved you up one spot. What if Ashes had ...
Post by Ludullu on 2023-02-01 10:05:51
What I'm suggesting would be those exact "oh shit" buttons. They'd just be used more often than once or twice a farm. And tank/healer will already have aspects of a healer. And tank/bard will have aspects of a bard. This is why I'm saying that Intrepid could try smth new with the archetype. When the lines are blurred - it's the perfect time to push those lines further.