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Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 17:17:10
Do we have any concrete word on the "up to half" part? I think I've always heard "a fraction". If it is truly up to half their inventory of gatherables, my pov might change, but so far I've been operating on a "no more than 20%, if even that". Cause as I see it, if people can drop 50% of their shit from a gank - Ashes in a much more dangerous place than I thought.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 17:24:46
Yeah, and I think Azherae's point was that you can just farm the enemy guild w/o doing the objective or letting them do it. Now if you're correct and we'll have a time limit on the war - that will not be the case, but w/o a limit I definitely see some guilds just farming their enemy until the enemy surrenders (which might bring them even deeper into despair, if the cost is somewhat high).
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 17:29:14
If L2's characters dropped half their mats on death, there'd definitely be waaaay more PKing of lowbies there, cause I have personally been a lowbie with thouuuuusands of different valuable mats on me after a good grinding session. There's definitely a possibility this will be the case in Ashes. Maybe that's even why BHs exist, because the game will kinda push people to PKing gatherers because they're piñatas. But as I said, that'd put the game into a dangerous place, cause casuals would utterly hate that setup.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 17:42:25
I mean, Intrepid have been fairly clear in saying that all tiers of mats will be important. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crafting#Gathering
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 17:50:05
I mean, I believe that Intrepid can (and probably already have) address that "exploit", but I find it weird that not even once has the time limit has been mentioned. The "not permanent" has always been in the context of "we have goals for our GWs instead of just pure existence". But even if we assume that time limit is 24h, that is still 24h of farming your enemy guild for mats. And if the price of declaration has a lower value than the mats gathered from the dead - people will do exactly this.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 17:56:31
There's an issue with "event-based death penalties" overall. They've said that you don't have any, but then Steven said that gear decay still applies during caravan attacks. Right now there hasn't been a word either way, so we don't know if you can loot your war enemies. This would in fact make guild wars way more fun imo, just because way more people would be fine with being in a war cause they won't lose all their shit. I guess we'll be testing this in alpha2, as will be the case with pretty much every single other feature in ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 18:09:46
Yeah, a ton of stuff is unknown rn and having 24h of unlimited mat looting would definitely diminish AoC's appeal to the majority of mmo players. They could potentially balance that through declaration costs, but that too will have to be tested. In other words - all of this is a pointless discussion until we get to alpha2.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 18:12:41
It's gonna be gatherables and processed goods. The thing we don't know is whether we'll drop a portion of all of them equally or just a portion of one stack of them in our inventory at random.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 18:30:22
While true, it still depends on how abundant/valuable your loot is. If one item from your 10 takes a few hours to acquire, even 10% would be worth it. But if you only have some random sticks that you picked up in the last 20 minutes, then even 25% wouldn't be worth flagging up. And then there's the "is it all gatherables or only one stack that drops" issue. If it's all of them that drop a portion - 10% is still quite a lot. If it's only a stack - 25% ain't much, relatively speaking. In other words, ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 19:02:53
We shall see if that is the case in alpha2
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 19:18:23
Ashes will have a harsher punishment for doing this, so not sure how much we can do that Though if there's some glass cannon class in the game - ohhh boi, the lowbies shall be dropping left and right.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 19:26:53
Well yeah, but that'll only work if there's a glass cannon class. Cause to maximize your genocide you'd have to be roughly the same lvl as lowbies and have shitty gear that you can easily replenish. Otherwise you're just getting to super decreased stats within a few kills. But if there's no glass cannon, there's a much higher chance that your victims will either fight back or have enough time to just run away. A ton of such cases happened back in L2 if you didn't use a mage/dagger to try and PK lowbies at their own lvl.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 20:40:32
What if the difficulty didn't go up? It was still only <10% of the playerbase who can farm it, but for said 10% it was super easy because they used trackers and everyone else didn't. Would you, at that point, see the game as boring? Cause at that point the content's general difficulty didn't change, while you yourself brought the boredom onto the content through the use of a tracker.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 20:42:12
Except the gold doesn't drop! Bad meme! Shoo shoo!
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 20:43:15
They are that if you make them that. Now I'm not saying that Intrepid won't do that, but who knows, maybe they won't
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 20:47:18
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 21:42:43
I mean yes, but the whole point of Noaani's eagerness to have them is the fact that Steven wants to have a raiding scene with his "we'll have <10% bosses" statement. And Noaani sees dps meters as the main tool that will let you beat those bosses and keep beating them, even if Intrepid increase the difficulty in whichever way. But what if the 90% of players still couldn't beat the bosses, but the 10% that were using the meters could beat them easily? The generally perceived difficulty would remain the exact same, while the "true" difficulty for the ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 23:02:35
Well Noaani disagrees with you there, cause he's been saying that some EQ2 bosses never got guides because people wanted to be the only one who's able to beat it. AoC's bosses will most likely have a similar attitude, because bosses will be super contested, and if you know a mechanic that lets you beat the boss while any other guild hasn't even attempted the boss (cause you won in pvp against them), they wouldn't even know where to start and you'd have a huge upper hand. But even outside of that. Why do you need meters then? If ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 23:10:20
Does it though? If the 90% still can't clear it, then it's still aspirational, no? They still can't clear it so it can't just suddenly become non-aspirational. The gear from that content will still be super rare in any group of people outside of the very top of the server. I can see that point if you mean it in the way "if the hardcore top people leave - everyone else will follow", but definitely disagree with the aspirational part of the equation.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 23:22:38
Huge companies do that because they couldn't give fewer shits about the customer service or their employees. What they do care is purely profits and their margins. Intrepid is trying to make a good mmo that appeal to mmo lovers who are tired of the very practices you mention. The best parallel I could draw here is "every other mmo has most/all their content in instances because that's easier for player to do. Why wouldn't Intrepid do that too?".
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 23:27:25
If you're partying up with guildies with whom you can't play - that's either a bad guild or a bad choice of guildies. Both seem to be a you problem, rather than the guild's. If you dislike all those people - you should find a better-suited guild.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 23:37:05
And I agree with all of those points, but my main counter to dps meters is the increased speed of going through the content. And while I understand that EQ2 was able to introduce enough content for all those hardcore people to eat while the devs made more (and I hope Intrepid can copy that pace), I'd personally prefer if that process was longer. One of the reasons why people blindly follow guides and try to push any non-top-dps person from the party is because they're trying to clear the content as fast as possible. They want to consume ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-12 23:52:58
I guess I'm just a unicorn when it comes to stuff like that I'd be completely fine with doing mundane boring stuff if it meant I'd get smth good for doing it. Well, I'll just keep hoping that Intrepid can make a ton of bosses for every expansion then.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-13 00:49:25
And this is kind of my point. If you require a tracker to figure out how to beat a boss - to me that's a badly designed boss. Why would I need a separate tool to figure out which % of damage I'm missing on top of all the other mechanics that I need to do? And from what I understand, all boss designs usually come down to just dps gates. Yes, you can have countless cool mechanics, but there's always gonna be some form of dps gate, because that's where the difficulty comes from in the fight. If ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-13 01:43:17
Yep, and this is why I think that it's gonna be just the regular vicious cycle. And if those people at the top say that the content is super easy and boring, it'll be just like Noaani said, everyone (or at least a lot of people) below will believe them and might not even attempt the content. Or even if they do attempt it - they won't be the ones with huge capacity, so they'll find it super hard or even impossible. At which point the top people are bored, the aspiring people can't beat the content and you ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-13 02:34:29
From what I know both WoW's and FF14's raids are scripted, is that right? And from what I remember, at least some of FF11's bosses were quite randomized. Now the question I have, are the ff14/wow bosses interesting because they have a proper "culmination" to the battle (especially in ff14's case), with the intensity of the fight growing throughout the fight, or was it just the fact of overcoming the peak difficulty of the boss? What I'm trying to get at is this: would those bosses still be interesting if their skillset was completely randomized right from the first ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-13 02:43:45
Ahh, this is exactly why I said "separate" and not "3d party" or "outside" And while you're here, I forget, were EQ2's bosses randomized or scripted? Or was the randomization tied to boss stage, so it always became harder throughout the fight. I'm just trying to figure out if it's possible to have a fun boss fight w/o the timer of dps (the rising difficulty is that timer). Or would the hardcore pvers see such a fight cheap and boring (the fight being completely randomized and at peak difficulty right from the start)?
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-13 02:45:59
Yes, that is always true. I'm just trying to find the single middle ground, if there even is one Most likely this is a pointless endeavor, but that is why I usually mostly ignore this thread until I find a new way to try and suggest a middle ground for participants of this discussion
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-13 02:51:23
So while we wait for Noaani to answer with his pov, here's a question for you. Would you need a dps meter for such a fight, considering that there's no "timer" for the fight? The enrage isn't coming so it's not necessary for you to have the most perfect build that puts out the most perfect dps.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-08-13 03:01:27
Ok, this would probably go a bit too deep into the "middle ground searching" territory, but at this point I'm just curious about a pov other than my own on this topic. If I understand correctly, you needed to see that course of events in the fight in the tracker in order to understand boss logic at that moment, right? What if there was no logic? What if the boss wouldn't have any particular triggers and would just use random shit from his skillset and switch his targets randomly - would that still be interesting for you?