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Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-20 23:55:44
Will there be detargeting or retargeting abilities, akin to L2's Aura Flash or tank Aggro?
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 00:41:26
Honestly I don't even remember at this point. It could also depend on the update they're referring to. Iirc L2 changed this particular interaction in later updates (as opposed to the very first ones). I thiiiink I mainly played the versions that had damage-based soft CCs that worked against greens. I tried looking at update patches but couldn't find anything concrete by just quickly skimming through the notes, but I'm fairly sure I remember that it was a big change in the game because a lot of people complained about a class that had Fake Death gathering a ton ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 00:50:13
And on the topic of how I think it should work, I'd like to see soft CCs work against greens (even w/o the dmg part) but have a deagroing effect on the victim. This way any PKer who just wants to kill their target can still slow them down (but the victim can just mount up and run away), while the pve gankers couldn't just run up to someone with a bunch of mobs slow the victim down and leave the mobs to kill the victim. This would also work against that ganker. If you see someone pulling trains ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 00:55:17
For the purpose of punishing the Red player - yes, it works just fine. For the purpose of limiting genocidal actions of those Red players - yes, it works perfectly.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 00:58:26
They've also said that secondary archetypes can allow you to fill a role w/o completely replacing someone with that role as the main archetype. So if your party doesn't have a summoner, you might want to pick up someone who has it as their secondary. Now there's a question of any potential synergistic abilities between main archetypes, but we've got 0 clue about anything like that so it's hard to say either way.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 01:52:51
Yeah, any negative move against another non-Red player should flag you up imo.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 02:45:10
As mentioned, some CCs went through, but outside of that I don't remember about the details. Btw another huge point for me in that Steven's comment was the "corruption takes way longer to grind off than it did in L2". To me that's a pretty big red flag and imo it's just a design flaw that got created purely to justify BHs' existence. Now that will obviously have to be tested properly, but I can definitely see a potential turn of events where no one dares to PK people which leads to people not flagging up (cause why would ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 03:00:55
There's a somewhat thin line between being that and having the opportunity to PK an equally-lvled player w/o having 30 mins of high risk mob grind in front of you even if it was your first PK. And I'll try my best to push for that thin line in my feedback during testing.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 03:11:36
For what it's worth I went through a few PKing vids of L2's archers and none of them used the stun against green players. Now that might've been because archer stun had a fairly small success rate, but they didn't try even though it was the third ability on their bar (and the stun had dmg on it too). So hard CCs might've in fact not go through against greens. And I personally like it that way as long as grinding off corruption from one kill (<15 count) doesn't take more than 10 minutes.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 03:40:52
Yes. Nope. And that's because By definition they were always murderers. And the "village's people" were always free to punish the murderer. They were bulls that saw red and attacked it immediately, preferably in groups. And this is mainly why most L2 players begin to counter-complain when they see someone criticize the system. A red player in L2 was a juicy soft bun of loot for anyone who was near his powerlvl. And even if you died to said red player while trying to kill him, you now knew that if you returned to him he'd still be red ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 03:46:12
Would've the announcement been better if they gave concrete reasoning for the change? Or do you think that this kind of change is unacceptable during the game's development?
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 03:58:33
What if there was some mechanic redesign that led Intrepid to believe that pvp in the seas would only work with ffa instead of a corruption-based system. And this redesign wasn't foreseen during kickstarter and was kind of a surprise for Intrepid themselves or just wasn't foreseen before proper QA testing. Just as the Apocalypse allegedly showed that Intrepid had big backend problems for their planned combat, some kind of internal extensive testing of naval battles could've shown that only ffa would probably work. And that testing was only done somewhat recently because naval battles were the latest thing ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 04:02:53
Some examples were given where this is a fairly big problem. Imo some classes should be shit at ganking. Namely bards, healers and tanks. They can be great enablers for ganking, but not solo gankers themselves. And if you're in a group ganking a solo player and want to have hard CCs on top of that - you're kinda griefing at that point. And we don't quite know if Steven meant that literally all CCs don't work against greens. It does seem that way from his wording, but I definitely hope they clear that particular mechanic in the upcoming ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 04:05:52
I meant the PK count of ~15. In other words, a kill here a kill there up until ~15, where after each kill you get the amount of corruption that would take ~5-10 minutes to grind off on the best mobs at your lvl. And after 15 that grind-off time can increase exponentially, in case someone was trying to kill a ton of lowbies or just wasn't doing the Pk counter removal quest while PKing a lot.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 04:23:28
True, I forgot about coastal stuff while thinking of that theoretical. So yeah, I agree that this change was definitely quite sudden and, depending on their reasoning, might've been uncalled for.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 04:35:40
I mean, if you're doing several PKs in a row, you gonna have yourself 30+ minutes of grinding, even if any given single kill would've only given you 5-10 mins of corruption. It's just that when I look back at L2, people were usually in the high dozens of PKs even when they PKed rarely. And they'd go do the counter cleansing quest if they started feeling that the karma timer was getting a bit too high each time they PKed. And I feel like ~15 kills should be a good number before you'd "have to" do the quest. ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 04:46:24
I'd prooooobably go with a ~30min for your first PK? Maybe 20, but the "significantly longer" wording from Steven kinda implies that it is in fact way longer. And if I'm remembering correctly, a solo location would give you enough XP at peak farming pace to remove one kill worth of karma in 2-3 mins (I thiiiink?). Party locations would usually mean just x6-8hp mobs which gave roughly the same amount of XP per group member that was then boosted by the group XP bonus, so if your pace was similar you'd clear it a bit faster. I thiiink ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 05:40:19
@Azherae so I checked a somewhat old version, so in theory this should be close to what Steven has in mind when he compares his values to AoC's. A PK gives you 240 karma (this is by a lvl5 char of a lvl3 char). ~300 XP removes one point. The very first mob in the game gives you 30xp. An interesting fact that I never noticed before, you gotta get ~300XP in one kill to remove the point. I tried killing 10 first mobs but the point didn't go away (killed around 20 and still nothing). I'll go check ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 05:52:19
L2 was balanced around party gameplay too, so barely any classes had self-healing, let alone powerful one. So pvp was usually a race of dps. And depending on your buffs and class matchup (and gear difference), ttk could go from a minute or two to pure seconds. And in terms of CCs, in general only bards had roots, only a few classes had silences (mainly mages), quite a few classes had slows and quite a few fighter classes had stuns of some sort (that is the target couldn't do anything while stunned). If you were in a situation where ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 06:59:13
Checked a later update. Had to go to a high rate server to check high lvl chars so the math is not quite exact, but still. The karma gain was the same, 240. Btw, after 4 kills it doubled to 480 per kill. At max lvl 117kXP removed 1 point of karma. That 117kXP is ~0.001% of a lvl. And to get that amount of XP I had to go kill 51lvl mobs while I was 85lvl. Ok, checked a mid rate server too (at low lvls) and now the points get removed at around 9kXP (lvl %-wise that ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 08:00:13
In my 10h of playing WoW I felt more triggered than in my 12 years of playing L2. Mainly because I couldn't remove a dude from my faction from a farming location. And running a dungeon several times just for the drop from, pretty much, one mob, w/o any variance in the runs was also boring as hell. Both of those things are solved with owpvp.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 08:57:20
That's the deal though, iirc it was a location with quest mobs (or at least the ones that dropped items needed for a quest). Even if I did farm 2/3 of the location, I'm a greedy bastard and want to have the location on lock. Once I'm done with my 2/3, which is the upper limit of what I could farm at the time, I want to immediately switch to the remaining 1/3, but that 1/3 is either dead and I need to wait or it's being farmed and I'll need to wait even longer. I'm all too familiar ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 09:12:22
Here's an example of what he's saying directly from L2. There's a BiS set for mages. Its pieces can drop from a few bosses (with a good chunk of those being epic ones that have 2-7 day respawns, and all others having 24+-3h ones) and they can also be crafted. You need mats and recipes to craft them. And while mats have a few locations that you can farm, recipes come from literally 1 kind of a mob (it's 3 mobs but they come as a group and have a shared respawn). And the chance to drop the recipe ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 09:27:45
Did EQ2 had this in its second expansion? Cause I'm not sure how many mmos there are that have this kind of variety in them. I've obviously haven't tried too many of them, but I don't think I've even heard about such mmos.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 09:38:34
To keep the combination of the two discussions going I'll continue my example from the other thread for this situation. Now I dunno whether my friends lied to me or not, but they said that in order to level up optimally, while also having a chance to get some nice gear, we'd need to run the same dungeon multiple times. There were other ways of doing things (and I used those), but they were so damn suboptimal that I got laughed at for doing them (mainly quests and just some general mob farming outside of the dungeon). So while ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 09:51:25
Damn, you would've reaaaally hated L2 if you had ever played it Glad you didn't, cause you might've not even been on this forum if you had played L2 and then heard that Steven was inspired by it to make Ashes.
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 09:53:06
Well then I hope Intrepid don't fuck up. And I'm glad you'll be there to tell them not to
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 10:06:47
And I'd assume GW (and most likely 2 too) has a ton of gear per tier too, considering it's THE horizontal mmo. Yeah, guess this is just another example of me not playing enough mmos back in the day
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 10:31:37
There's criminally low amounts of information about that game. Especially considering that it was supposed to come out this year. What's the situation with gear variety in BDO? Cause I feel like korean devs just like to utilize player funnels in their pvp mmos and it's way easier to do if players don't have a choice in where to go or what to farm. And when most players hang around the same locations with limited mobs, you have yourself Steven's beloved soft friction. Though iirc BDO has channels so the friction kinda goes out the window when you have ...
Post by Ludullu on 2022-10-21 21:27:09
Something on the spectrum from here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF51CPgWwqg to here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChI_4wvLZNk Both are summoners, but the first one completely relies on the summon to do the dmg and just supports it with heals and buffs, while the second one is a debuffing mage that uses a summon to just share dmg with (the first one shares dmg too but it's the smaller summon function rather than the big one).